Selling Mom's Home Using POA When She Seems Lucid
I have three siblings and one lives fifteen minutes away from my mom. I live in another state but manage all her finances and anything else I can to take the load off our sibling who lives locally.
When I agreed to be my mom's power of attorney, I naively thought it would only come into play for her finances. However, this past weekend I had to use it for the first time to stop her from moving out of assisted living. She managed to contact a mover and coordinate a move back to her house (though she gave them the wrong addresses). I saw the confirmation come through her email and, after consulting with my siblings, played the POA card to cancel the move.
She is not happy. We moved her into assisted living two months ago and she HATES it. She has always been extremely independent and incredibly stubborn if someone tried to infringe on her independence. When I spoke to her this weekend about canceling the move, she sounded very lucid and like my stubborn mom who wants to be at home. My brothers have to remind me that the mom I'm talking to on the phone does not resemble the day-to-day mom when you're with her in person. The kicker is that since she's been in assisted living and eating and taking her meds regularly, she's doing better. But her going home would be a rinse-and-repeat of her not eating, not staying hydrated, and not regularly taking her meds. It would be another five-alarm scramble when she inevitably injures herself or otherwise requires hospitalization.
Next month my siblings and I plan to clear out her house and sell it. As her POA, I have the authority to do this. However, ever since I canceled her move this past weekend, she's texted me about how she can't believe I would interfere without consulting with her, how upset she would be if I rented or sold her house without discussing it with her, and whether she can revoke my POA. Knowing what we're doing next month, these messages KILL me.
Has anyone been in this situation? How did you navigate it and what did you share (or not share) with your parent?
Comments
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I am cleaning out moms house now. She is a hoarder and my brother is no help, so it’s going to take way more than a month. I have not told mom what I am doing. She continues to ask us to take her bake to her her house so she can sort through things. She thinks I am being mean, and tells me what I’m doing is wrong. She would be furious if she knew! She tires easily, is not able to distinguish trash from treasure and has no idea how much work needs to be done, how to set about the process and has a 2 minute attention span. No way she could be involved. My mom also made a few physical improvements after the move to assisted living. I would be worried that if she could call movers she could call a lawyer and try to have your DPOA revoked. Does she still have a credit card? Seems like she would need it to book movers. I would that the card away! Let her think she lost it. Could you set her phone in some kind of child mode so she can only make calls to designated numbers? I worried a bit about mom taking me off as DPOA, but she is not tech savvy enough to look up a phone number using her phone. She also doesn’t drive and I figured she couldn’t get to a lawyer. It’s all so frustrating and heartbreaking.
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Oh my goodness. let me just say, feeling will be hurt and more than likely they will be your feelings. Because your mom will say something then forget about it, but that sting, you'll remember. You mention 3 sibling - one that lives 15 minutes away and you, in another state. Is the third sibling not involved? (I'm not prying, just trying to get a clear idea of the situation.)
I would suspect your mom can 'act' if you will, pretty 'normal' for you on the phone for a short bit. But that's what it is, an act. She doesn't want you to know how she truly is, so she pretends nothing is wrong. Many do this, its very common. One thing you can do is to put a spending limit on the credit card she apparently has. Personally, I'd set a low amount - $100 or much less. When she uses or tries to use her card, you will be notified to authorize the purchase. That way she can't go on a spending spree. Or giving out donations, etc.
She's in assisted living for her benefit, but she doesn't see it that way. Neither did my mom! I finally ask my mom if she thought anyone there wanted to be there. Of course her answer was no. I built my case on that. See mom, they don't want to be here either, but they know its best. Its what they are doing. You might try that angle, it probably won't work, but your mom will think about it at least.
I wish you good luck in cleaning out her house and selling it. I have no advice to offer. You know she won't like it. Feelings will be hurt, remember that. Things will be said that can't be unsaid. She'll find out about it somehow.
I don't want to overwhelm you so that's enough information for now. Document everything - absolutely everything, with picture and in writing.
eagle
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It took years of speaking with my mom to convince her that a move was necessary.
Last summer, she lost vision in one eye and at the lowest point in her life, I seized my final opportunity to show her she was no longer safe to drive or live alone. Though she had always refused, I tried once more. This time she agreed. We got her moved in to an independent living facility.
For months, she complained that she made a grave mistake by moving. By then, I simply said that there was no undoing what was done, ESPECIALLY if it required my help.
I am disabled and moving her almost cost me my life. It was all just too much.
Being her POA, I then had to convince her to let me rent out her house. She adamantly stated she did not want it rented. She wanted it sold. I had other talk reason to her. She gave in & the house is now rented.
I say all that to say, in her moments of lucidity, you should TRY to keep her in the loop. Always let her feel that she has a say in the matter. It is just a matter of being courteous. Sadly, she will forget whatever the decision was & become argumentative once again. So, when she does, remind her that you spoke with her and let her know that she was in agreement. It is a lie but at this point in our parent's lives, we can not wait for them to make a decision. Worse, we can not expect them to make the logical decision regarding what is in their best interest. Hugs!😘
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Thanks H1235 for your advice. After the move fiasco, we replaced my mom's credit cards with a refillable $100 card. When I'm up there next month I'm going to install a parental control app on her phone so I can filter what communications she can send and receive. I have an awful feeling that my mom won't stop fixating on going home. I don't want to start avoiding her, but it's impossible to divert her from the topic when we talk. She sounds very lucid on the phone. This disease is brutal for everyone involved.
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Eagle, thanks so much for your post. I have three brothers. When we first started noticing issues with my mom, my local brother and I decided to divide and conquer. We were always closer to my mom than my other two brothers and it helped avoid the problem of "too many cooks in the kitchen". As mom's disease has progressed the other two brothers have stepped up. (Our parents are divorced so the unofficial rule is my other two brothers will manage our dad when that time comes).
After the move fiasco, we did take away her credit cards and gave her a prepaid card with $100 on it. Mom is absolutely fixated on going home. I know there's no reasoning with her. Ever since I stopped the move, every call we have is about how she hates it there and how she's almost 80 and won't live forever and she wants to be home. And I get that. And frankly there's a part of me that wants to throw my hands up and say, "Fine!" and let her lie in the bed she's made. But (and selfish it made seem) if she goes home, I'll worry about her everyday and it will be yet another five-alarm fire drill for her kids when something goes wrong. We tried AL a year ago when she broke her hip. Again, she hated it and we compromised and let her move home and basically managed her entire life for her. My brother is so burned out from doing that (and understandably so).
Mom from 15 years ago wouldn't want us to sacrifice our lives for her. But Mom right now doesn't comprehend the absolute load her care has put on us.
You're 100% right that feelings will be hurt and I appreciate the warning. I find myself wanting to avoid talking to my mom just so we don't have to keep going around and around on this topic. There is no diverting her to other topics we've enjoyed discussing.
Thanks for letting me vent. This past week has been so anxiety-provoking and I'm exhausted. My mom and I were always so close. I honestly wasn't prepared for the scenario where she'd be put in AL but still with it enough to communicate so clearly her displeasure.
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JulietteBee, thanks so much for taking the time to reply. I'm really struggling with hearing my mom sound like my mom and reason like my mom. She's calm and hasn't gotten nasty, but it's so hard to talk to her knowing that this topic is going to come up every dang time. How did you keep the lines of communication open with your mom? How did you maintain your relationship with her when she was complaining for months? Did you just have to grin and bear being the bad guy or could you sometimes set aside her displeasure and have at least some normal interactions?
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is your POA a DPOA? You have a POA for a reason. Your Mom is no longer able to reason. Her reasoner is broken. It’s up to you to make decisions on her behalf. The kindest thing to do is fib. Just sell the house and don’t discuss it with her or tell her when it is sold. Tell the attorney I that she has dementia and is in a care facility and if she contacts the office to let you know as her POA. I doubt an attorney would revoke the DPOA with her diagnosis. Make sure you have proof of diagnosis and find out what stage ahead is in (look up a chart with 7 stages that shows behaviors). Make sure your siblings know the fib. To people with dementia, home is usually a feeling not a place. Many say they want to go home even if they are still living and being cared for at home. So best thing is to fib, then redirect or offer a treat to change the subject. The fib could be the house is being repaired, the power is out. When my husband asked to go home I said when the doctor said so. He asked every time I visited.
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Hello,
So I moved my father in with me 10 months ago to a whole other state. He co tinues to think he is just visiting and will go back home. When I first got him here I tried to explain that he would be here awhile and tried to explain why. He then was not able to understand or acknowledge there is anything wrong. He was living alone forgetting to eat not taking meds ect. He is now on somewhat of schedule eating and taking meds regularly and doing quite well physically.All he talkes about is when he goes home.
Thank you so much for your post because I’m struggling with now having to go back to home and get it ready to be sold. I wish he could understand or know. However after reading your post and seeing the hurtful mean things you are having to deal with maybe for me it’s a Godsend that I’m not able to share it with him and he’s not able to understand.This is probably one of the hardest things I’ve had to do but much like your mom my father just wasn’t safe and able to take care of him self like he use to.
I’m sorry you are going thru this with your mom, but Thank you for sharing as it has opened my eyes and maybe will help me thru what I’m going to have to do in the week coming with cleaning out the house and putting it up for sale.
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When you call, talk to your mom about whatever you talk about, but when the topic comes to going home, tell her you have to go now (one minute or 20, you don't have to stay on the phone). You're getting nowhere going round and round on that, so let her know you can't talk long and then whenever she gets to going home, get off.
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for me had to come to not sharing things anymore because my father doesn’t understand there is anything wrong with him. There’s a lot of fiblets I have to use and repsonibilities that we’re taking from him quietly.
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SDianeL, I do have a DPOA. Mom asked me if she could revoke it but in the same text asked me how, so I'm not terribly worried about her successfully revoking it. My brothers who have seen her more recently are confident an attorney would figure out very quickly she is cognitively impaired.
What distresses me is she's very clear on what home is and can enumerate a whole list of reasons why she would rather be there than AL. There's no reasoning with her and, so far, I haven't been able to redirect her when we get on the topic.
I guess I just need to be prepared for my mom to be mad at me :(
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JM27, I'm sending you a big virtual hug. This disease is the pits. We moved my mom from FL to VA about two years ago and I had no idea the emotional toll that would take on me. She was an avid quilter all her life and I found a bunch of quilt kits in her FL house that I realized she no longer had the faculties to create. I just sobbed. I hope that clearing out her house this time won't be such an emotional whollop, but hearing her so clearly voice her displeasure with where she is and be able to list all the reasons she wants to go home is awful. I don't feel like a grown woman in her late 30s, I feel like a little kid who doesn't want her mom to be angry at her.
Nothing can prepare us for the emotional hit that comes with moving a parent and making decisions for them. If you need someone to talk to while you're going through your dad's house, I'm all ears.
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I actually did that yesterday and I think you're on to something. I told her I only had 20 minutes to talk. Unfortunately, that meant 15 minutes were spent with her enumerating all the reasons she wanted to go home and basically begging me to let her. I really appreciate your suggestion of letting our calls be more open-ended ("I have a bit of time to talk so wanted to say hi") and then having to leave when she mentions moving home.
"You're getting nowhere going round and round on that," is a perfect summation.
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My moms memory is still quite good and she can carry on a fairly normal conversation. She can tell me in great detail were to find an item in her house (which is saying something, since it is full). Now that she is in Al she talks about wanting to go home so she can be the one to sort through her personal items. It seems so reasonable on the surface. I know without question she can not be taken to her house, but because she sounds so confident, determined and reasonable it makes it so hard. I know that at her house she would want to power wash her swing and repaint it, reupholster her couch, deep clean the bedroom carpet and mow her own lawn (these were common plans before the move to Al and obviously things she’s not capable of). It would almost be easier to accept if I heard about these crazy plans or if she didn’t know who I was or was more progressed. Not that I want her to progress any more than she has. I guess I don’t really know what I’m trying to say, maybe just that it is so complicated.
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I agree 100 percent. There is nothing to prepare us emotionally for this. I too feel like a little girl listening to my father when he states all the things he going to do to his house once he goes back home.
Thank you for the support and virtual hug.
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I so appreciate how everyone can share and vent and equally help one another here. That's what we are here for - to help each other. This journey isn't easy nor for the faint of heart, its brutal. Sometimes you think, well, I can handle this, to the next moment thinking, where did that comment come from. Sadly all of it is part of the journey. Our parents don't want this, nor do they want to be a burden for their family. But they can't think nor process things correctly anymore. So we have to do what is best for them. If placing them is best, for their safety, you have to do it. That's nonnegotiable, its their safety that's at risk. Since they don't 'see' it that way you have to find some way to help them. Personally, I used the "mom, before you can go home I've got to get someone to check the heater. You don't want that going out." Or "I stopped by and the air conditioner sounded funny. I'm going to call someone to look at it before you can go home." When she'd ask about the heater or AC the repair man was always "waiting on a part." Was it an out right fib, yes. Was she still safe in her placement, yes.
You do whatever you have to do to keep them safe. You've placed your parent because you love them and that hasn't changed. Keep up the good dialogue.
eagle
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I found this chain weirdly and sadly reassuring, though I can only imagine how stressed out you must feel. I thought my mom was gaslighting me for the past month. One day she's fine, lucid, warm, funny, loving - all the good feels. Within minutes, it can change. All of sudden, I get progressively angry texts or she'll call repeatedly to tell me how I am dishonoring my father's wishes, treating her badly because I think she's old and stupid, and so on. Often, her first response is much like a child's - I didn't do that (cancel appointments, yell at her aide, etc.), I didn't text that message (someone must be messing with her phone), the list goes on and on. Most times i try to ignore the messages but, once in a while, I crack and respond (which probably makes the issues worse).
In her more lucid "normal" moments, she talks about needing to move to a home where she could thrive and be around people (her friend found one that has a number of asian people, which would make sense for her. Anything else would actually be detrimental…imagine being American and sent to a rest home where no one relates to the American culture…it's even more isolating than being alone)). But if I bring it up again, she either gets angry or - twice now, goes into a rage/tantrum mode.
I find it so hard to figure out when or how to work with her to make actual decisions - when she's "good," she makes sense, even has actual plans that would work, and is accepting. But I never know when the switch will go off. Though her friends have noted a slight personality change, the only person she dumps on is me.
I'm curious to see how your situation turns out. I'm absorbing everyone's experiences in getting their parent moved into a care facility. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only with a parent who is so difficult to navigate AND has a language barrier AND who seems to think that, because I'm the daughter, I am supposed to take all the crap and cater to feelings only. (I should mention, we lost my dad last 2 months ago. She has yet to acknowledge that I, too, am grieving a loss.)
Grateful to this community….and letting me vent too.
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@lisn2cats , vent away! I'm so sorry you are bearing the emotional weight of your mom's disease, especially as you are trying to process the grief of losing your father.
My mom apparently experiences the same mood swings. Being long distance, I don't really witness them. But my brother and his family do. He describes her mood changes not as a pendulum but something that jumps all over the place with no warning - Poof! She's content. Poof! She's complaining about the food. Poof! She's expressing how pleased she is with their outing that day.
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I like it - poof. Maybe that should be our word from now on. Things are fine but poof! Its descriptive enough that everyone understands what it means and as caregivers we certainly understand it.
Of course I'm not making fun of our LO's at all. Today at our house we've had several 'poofs' just out of the blue. You just go with the flow and try to not be offended or hurt. Which is hard.
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U r right it is so hard not to be offended and hurt. My mom is 98% of the time saying mean and hurtful things or hanging up the phone on me
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waWalkwer22 I know you do not want to hear this from a lawyer. but I have to tell you that a power of attorney makes you a Fiduciary who is obliged to obey the principal. . You have no independent power to make decisions against the expressed wish of the principal unless you have made the legal effort to have the principal declared incompetent. You are not a guardian. Your mother appears to have told you in no uncertain terms not to sell the house. Lets take the worst hypothetical I can imagine. YOU can end up personally liable. Do not do anything without good legal advice Your relatives dont count,
my wife was legally competent for 7 years after the original diagnosis1 -
In no way am I attacking here - just expressing my frustration. So what are you "legally" supposed to do in the situation that your parent can't live alone because it isn't safe and they don't have enough cash to pay for the spend down in a facility without selling the house?
Her brain MRI report shows that she's in the 1 percentile for the majority of her brain volumes. It's advanced and she cannot make decisions.
As the POA are we not responsible for their well-being? My mom wants to go home and thinks she's fine but after I moved her into assisted living (last week) I found a plastic bowl of cheerios in her oven and that is at least the 4th time (that I know about) we have had issues involving her stove/oven. The 3 neighbors she talks to have all told me that they knew she had dementia a while ago because of her behaviors that she has tried to hide from me for the last few years. I knew she had some memory issues but had no idea how bad it all was until just the last 5 months when I have had to basically step in and take over everything because she couldn't remember to take her meds and she's on heart meds, cholesterol meds, blood thinner etc so she can't just not take them.
I am so frustrated with all of the laws that pertain to HER rights. I get it that we don't want to go backwards in time where people could be committed when there wasn't anything wrong and had no rights, but am I supposed to let her call the shots because she still has rights? She still wants to drive too but if I give her the keys and she kills someone who is responsible for that? HER rights also say that she can't be held against her will at the facility even if she has a guardian - so what is the answer to that? I can't move her in with me because I work and can't afford to just quit my job to take care of her full time. If I were to let her go back home it would only be a matter of time before she either burns the house down or has a serious injury or a stroke and then could possibly be bed ridden for the remainder of her life. I'm guessing that as her POA I would be held accountable for that in some way. Being the POA seems like a no win situation from where I'm sitting and we haven't even gotten into the stress and anxiety it brings.
The reason I've been up since 3am on this website is because we just moved her into AL last week and today she decided to fly the coup and the police found her and brought her back. Now they are moving her to the memory care wing because they can't have the liability. She is refusing to take meds now and I am scared to death that she is going to dig her heals in and refuse to eat or drink. Then what happens? Do they tell me she can't stay there? I don't know what to do and am about ready to check myself in.
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No attacking here either. And I am so sorry we're all dealing with such hard issues—really impossible, sometimes. An observation: In the state where I was made a DPOA, I consulted with an attorney but also carefully read the DPOA document and looked up the state laws myself. (I had two or three questions about sections of the law, which I addressed to an attorney. He interpreted them more broadly than I would have.) When I agreed to take on the DPOA role, I agreed to "act loyally for the principal's benefit." Although I agreed to act according to the "reasonable expectations" of the principal so far as these were known, I did not agree to "obey" nor to consult the principal before making every decision. I am meant to exercise judgment in the interests of my parent, which is what I've done and am doing.
The recommendation made earlier to seek legal counsel is a good one. An elder law attorney can explain the DPOA’s obligations.
In my own case, I found a placement for my parent in a care facility when that was necessary (actually, it was needed before we were able to make it happen, for reasons not relevant to this post). I cleared and sold a house, I repaired and sold a car, and I otherwise worked to ensure that my parent's financial assets were protected so that they are available to be used for care. Turning the house into money-in-the-bank was the right thing to do in my best judgment. It's true that my parent was not yelling at me not to sell the house, but at the same time I did not ask permission to do it, in the same way that I do not ask permission to write the monthly check for the care facility. (My parent would object to the cost, I know.) I act according to my best judgment as well as according to the law that requires me to act in good faith.
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One more thing: Somebody else on Alzconnected posted the following link recently, and it's helpful. If you scroll down, there's info. for POA's, for guardians, etc.:
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May I gently repeat in full sympathy
Do not do anything without good legal advice Your relatives dont count,
You may need to become a guardian if a court allows
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I so hear and empathize with you. I am headed in the same direction of where you're at now and am scared and frustrated. While I can't help you with any advice, etc., at least you know you are not alone.
I mentioned before that my mom is 90. Earlier this week, she inexplicably went to her neighbor at midnight and, on her way back to her house (right next door), she fell. Luckily, their MO is to watch her as she walks home. Long story short, she is still in the hospital waiting for a MRI. In the meantime, since she's there, I asked for an assessment; the hospital refused saying if she doesn't want one then they can't administer it. She has rights. Great. Then they said they are fine with discharging her to her home rather than a rehab center because she seems relatively fine (well, of course. She presents well when she has constant attention on her.) And this is after explaining repeatedley that her mental health is declining, we just got "fired" by our last inhome care service (she was too much for them), and I have no where to go for help. They said that she has the right to refuse services and even going to a doctor (neurologist). I told them I am getting so fed up and so frustrated that my own mental health is at stake AND I need to keep my job but running interference and taking care of her needs are jeapordizing my job (I have to take so much time off work to manage her).
Having a POA seems to be of little use. As long as she is lucid enough to make decisions for herself (well, on her good days), there doesn't seem to be much I can do except take care of her finances. I know that she, too, has the potential of being a danger to herself. Thank goodness she never learned to drive. And now we are on a new cycle: buying groceries then throwing them away within 2 days because they're "old" and "going bad" followed by repeat texts telling me how I am neglectful, starving her because she has no food in the house, she's going to report me, etc. (I Uber Eats her food at least 3x/week and her friends take her to the grocery store/cafes at least 3x/week. She is NOT starving!).
I appreciate all the insights and advice from those who have been dealing with this for years. But it doesn't make it any less frustrating and sad. The solutions are not one-size-fit-all and finding a size that almost fits feels like a never-ending challenge.
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In my state there is something called a petition for evaluation. A lawyer may be able to help, we just went to the courthouse and filled it out. You are basically telling a judge why you believe your loved one is a harm to themselves or others (with examples). If the judge agrees then he would order an evaluation to be done at the hospital. I found hospital doctors took things much more seriously with the judge’s order.
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The concept of “self-neglect” can sometimes help trigger involvement of social workers and other officials. There’s still the matter of an individual’s right to refuse care, but sometimes a PWD will respond better to a stranger whom they see as an authority than to a family member. I don’t know: it feels like cold comfort, but it’s yet another strategy to try in some circumstances. Washington State describes it this way:
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I am learning things here. This is good discussion.
eagle
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, I did not agree to "obey" nor to consult the principal before making every decision. I am meant to exercise judgment in the interests of my parent, which is what I've done and am doing.
A POA is not an "agreement" it is an appointment"
here is how they say it in MarylandPowers and Duties of Person with Power of Attorney An agent is required to act in the best interest of the principal. The agent must do what they think the principal would want them to do, to the best of the agent's ability.
The agent is required to follow the principal’s written and oral instructions and act in the principal’s best interests. If the agent fails to do so, he or she may be liable for damages.
https://www.justia.com/elder-law/power-of-attorney/
A guardian makes their own decisions, a POA follows the instructions0
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POA = Power of Attorney
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