Dementia and Finances

RinVA

Hello everyone.

I have been silently lurking a few months but decided to finally bite the bullet and post. I will save the introduction and back story for a later day, if that is ok. I am emotionally zonked and it is too much right now.

My mom has an unspecified dementia diagnosis - likely AD but will need imaging or more testing for a full diagnosis. Regardless....after her last 6 hour testing appointment a few weeks ago and those testing results, her doctor advised she should not be doing any financial business, writing checks, paying bills, ect. She is at a high risk for significant errors and in his words "her cognitive compromise and anosognosia leave her vulnerable to being taken advantage of or of making poorly considered decisions".

THE PROBLEM--- since moving into Assisted Living in October 20 my mom has insisted that SHE receive all her mail and see all her bills ect. She insists on control and wants to "be involved in all aspects" of her financial management. She resists my help and gets angry if I don't explain something to her satisfaction  but she can't understand numbers and even if she does seem to understand- she forgets shortly after, she withholds important information, and recently has started writing checks again even though she said she would not.

I am her only child and she has no other living relatives except her sister who is also in her 70's and a primary caregiver to her ailing husband. They talk on the phone but that is the extend of her sisters involvement /help. 

I do have Durable Power of Attorney but my mom does not want me to use it.

I KNOW I need to take her check book away. But she won't give it willingly. I know I need to also take her only credit card in her possession, but again, she won't give it up willingly. I have NO IDEA  how to handle the mail. It has been advised that I have all her mail forwarded to my home but even tho she can't understand the bills-she will realize she isn't getting them anymore and will freak out. 

Thanks to ALZ.com's care consultants advise I am taking steps to limit our interactions when they become combative about finances or she gets angry/mean/manipulative. I try to distract and if that doesn't work I get off the phone. But I have stopped visiting in person as often (we get 30min in person 1x a week) because its so traumatic. 

So any advise for someone relatively new in the trenches? How does one start handling their parents finances/envoke the POA? What happens when she stops getting mail and bills (how do I handle the backlash)? I feel like 99% of our interactions are tainted by financial discussions and its become incredibly toxic for both of us. 

Thank you for reading.

star26

Hi RinVA, I have been in this situation. It is ROUGH. First of all, thumbs-up to her doctor for bringing this to your attention. Now it's up to you to follow through. Forget about what your Mom says and wants for a moment and refer back to what the doctor told you. She has anosognosia and dementia. She doesn't recognize her impairments and therefore is incapable of using good judgement. When she named you as her POA she entrusted you to step in when necessary to look out for her best interests. That time is now. 

Read the POA: If it says a doctor needs to determine she's incapable of handling her own affairs before you can use it, then get the doctor's letter to accompany the POA. This is called a "springing POA". Most aren't. If it doesn't say anything like this, you can use the POA now. 

If you have not done so already, go to the bank with the POA and get your name on the account. All banks have different policies about POAs and you first need to make sure they will accept yours. While there, advise them of your Mom's condition and what her doctor said. If you don't have this in writing from the doctor, definitely get it in writing and keep it in your files. I would want the bank to have a record of this as well. 

Open up a new account at the same bank or a different bank and transfer all your Mom's money into it. Have any direct deposits and auto debits switched over as well. Close the original account. As the bank about letting your Mom keep the checks. Would she be subject to fees or criminal action if she used the checks on the old account? Another option is to take the checks out of her purse and apartment when she's not looking. If you can't visit, have a trusted staff member do it after you close the account. To be clear, you are not discussing or disclosing any of this to your Mom, ever.

Consider whether you need a credit card in your Mom's name - I'm referring to your use of the account to pay expenses or buy things for her, not her use of it. If you don't need it and can either write checks or use your own credit and reimburse yourself later, then cancel the credit card. You can leave it in her wallet. Otherwise, take it. If you have a fake card or an old card that's no longer valid, you can put that in it's place. 

Have all mail sent to you. Change the mailing addresses and put in a forwarding order. Say nothing about it to her. If she notices the lack of mail and asks, say you will look into it and talk about mail delays. If she asks again, tell her you talked to the companies and they are having problems or have put new procedures into place and blah blah blah there's nothing for her to worry about because the problem is on their end. Or maybe everyone is switching to online bills only due to covid or postal problems. Or maybe the AL is requiring no paper mail for the same reasons. Don't bring the subject up yourself. Fib, reassure, and redirect when she brings it up. You put all of the blame on another entity or policy, not you.  

I love that you are limiting phone conversations and visits to save yourself from stress and nastiness. That is such a good idea. Do not be afraid of your Mom, afraid of her anger, afraid of what she'll say, or afraid of lying to her or doing things behind her back. This is not wrong. It is the necessary care for a person with dementia. It is what you are supposed to do. Once you do all this and get it behind you, you will feel better and this topic will eventually fade away from her conversations. 

Speaking from experience, I would consider all of this to be an emergency and start doing it immediately. Once the big stuff is taken care of, run an online credit report for her and make sure there are not cards or activities you're not aware of. If your Mom starts getting active on the phone, you may need to address that as well to protect her. 

Welcome to the forum! 

RinVA

Wow- thank you so much for your incredibly thoughtful reply Star26! 

I have a couple more questions based from your reply- I hope you do not mind

-As far as the POA it was valid from the day she signed it, so I shouldn't need a Dr's letter. I do have the report /after visit notes from her Neuro testing appointment where the doctor specifically says she should not be doing her finances...but it also says confidential all over it. I signed her up for the hospitals "mychart" system mostly so I could handle the bills using their system but it also gives me access to her testing and health visits.

-POA problems, I already sent to her main bank and the credit card company. Unfortunately her IRA/stocks/ect require a completely different, internally drafted POA document. There is no way she will sign it at this point, she already is furious with me for "putting her in ASL" and for all the other horrible things I have done in the last 4 months, all necessary ofc. So at some point I suppose I will have to go for guardianship to protect these assets as well - I did speak to the firm that manages her account and there are protections in place if she attempted to make any changes to her account that deviate from her normal (which has always been to just let the brokers manage the account) then her accounts basically get frozen until I am able to step in with guardianship. Obviously guardianship is the thing I was really trying to avoid so I was devestated to realize we didn't have this POA in place. 

-When opening a new account /transferring all her $ -- is that to stop her from just requesting more checks via the phone? I assume I would still put it in her name tho, correct? 

-Also what kind of record keeping is expected of a POA? I have just been filing everything (bills, receipts, ect)  by month in folders but I am stressed out that I am not doing it "right".  

-So when my mom brings up her banking or wanting to know "how her money is" or "wants to see the monthly report" I just completely deflect, lie, make up excuse, ect? What about when she calls her friends /sister/bank/ random worker at the ASL to complain or voice her concern that I am hiding things , refusing to tell her about the banking/finances, ect? I mean, conceptually I understand what I am doing is the "right" thing but you hit the nail on the head when you said tot to be afraid of her. So much easier said then done. Even though I am 45 with 2 young kids of my own and have been sucessfully "adulting" since I was 17 - my mom can reduce me to feeling like a (rotten /awful) kid in minutes, dementia or not.  

Thanks again for reading and responding Star! I was going to send this all in a private message but figured the information might help someone else on this journey as well. 

RinVA

Oh and one more question- as for having all the mail forwarded to my address- do I need to say anything to the post office about this? I know I can do it on usps website online but I wasn't sure if there was a specific way I needed to do it.  I have read the POA a million times but I am pretty sure there isn't anything on there about changing addresses in the US post office. I just don't want to get in trouble...is that even a thing? 

CodyW

Dear RinVA, 

You are on the right track!  I'm sorry that I can't write a better note right now, but you've got this!  This is the hardest stage (I know, my mom is end stage).  Reassure your mother, nod your head up and down, smile, agree, defer, delay, and redirect.  Do not argue or try to reason with her.  Continue to make her finances "disappear" by redirecting mail, closing bank accounts, etc.  Do what you need to do behind the scenes, while you soothe and sympathize with her.  

Her challenging behavior is a result of anxiety, and the less she thinks about her money the less anxiety she will have.  Your job is to make it all go away so she has no more worry.  She will scream and cry until one day it is all forgotten.

Do not feel guilty for limiting your contact with her as necessary to maintain your sanity.  Only meet with her where there are other people around, so that she is reluctant to go off on you.  

Gaining control of the finances is challenging.  Lots of hoops to jump through, lots of resistance from institutional bureaucracies.  Keep good records and move transactions online where possible.  Seek out local and sympathetic local managers who can meet with you face to face and help clear the corporate hurtles.

This too shall pass.  You are a good daughter / son.  Hang in there!

CodyW

Jane Smith

Hi R, and welcome.  I am sorry you need to be here. 

This is definitely tough and I’m so sorry. I have been there with my own mother (now late stage dementia and in memory care, after first moving to assisted living) and have observed the same issues with another relative (assisted living, went there for other health reasons, now has early to mid stage dementia as well). 

There is no nice way to say this and please hear me when I say I do not mean to be unkind in any way, but as her PoA, you have not only the power, but quite possibly also the legal obligation, to protect her finances. It’s spelled out in the document. I only bring this up because for me personally, it helped to remind myself that I had to take over my mother’s finances, it was my job.  Of course this won’t work for everyone, but I can only do the administrative part of caregiving without losing my mind if it treat it like a job. (I’m an only child, my mother and I had a terrible relationship pre-dementia, I won’t bore you with the details, but I wouldn’t have chosen this and I do not do this out of affection, sadly.)

Sadly, before I took over, my mother lost significant funds to dementia, from poor decision making, overspending on unnecessary and unused items, and also to scammers.  While it didn’t bankrupt her, because mercifully the bulk of her assets was hard to access, it is money I wish she had for her care now.  The same thing happened with my other relative until their PoA finally stepped in. It’s not an uncommon story, I am sad to say. 

It is never easy when we have to protect someone from themself. I’m so sorry you are in this position. 

Depending on your relationships with the staff, perhaps you might enlist their help in physically removing the checkbook, bank card, credit cards, statements, and other items from her possession/apartment. 

Absolutely stop or redirect her mail. Again, the staff can likely intercept it for you while you’re waiting for the post office to catch up. You can go through all of it and ensure she receives the harmless items, if that works for her and is not a trigger for wondering where the bills are.  Sometimes with dementia, out of sight is very much out of mind. 

Banks and other financial institutions can be a real pain to deal with. I had to find the right person at each place, to get them to accept the PoA.  (Like yours, my mom could not do their paperwork.  It was a literal miracle from Heaven that I ever got her to sign a PoA!). It is possible that persistence may pay off.  Honestly, it may be faster and less overall hassle just to open fresh accounts and transfer the funds.

Absolutely never, ever, bring up or refer to anything to do with bills, money, banking, insurance, anything related to finances, with your mother. If it comes up, don’t react with any visible change in expression, body language, or tone of voice, reassure her in pleasant but vague terms and change the subject, or end the call, or distract her, or leave the room.

I know this is not part of your question but if you will indulge me, as I said, I’m also an only child and my mother and I had a contentious relationship for most of pre-dementia. She had an accident, went to the ER, from the ER to a Geriatric Psychiatric unit for an involuntary stay, and from there to AL. We moved her from where she had lived most of her life to the AL unit in the city where I live, a couple of hours away.  She had enough clarity at the moment of the move to know exact what happened, although that knowledge did not last, but she absolutely blamed me. The move in was unbelievably horrifying. 

So horrible, that the nurse manager (who saw the whole thing) told me not to visit for a while. A while ended up being something like 8 or maybe 10 weeks. That’s right, I didn’t see her for over two months after she moved to AL. Once I started visiting it was under very specific circumstances as she would kick off unexpectedly and it was at least as bad for her as it was for me. What helped was getting her meds straightened out, especially getting her soul crushing anxiety under control, taking care of some medical issues that had been neglected, and the benefits of AL.  (Like, regular meals, and people to talk to, and activities, and a routine, and getting the right meds on time every day, and better hygiene, and so on.  When she went into GeriPsych she was malnourished, way underweight, on a horrifying cocktail of prescription and OTC meds, not on meds she needed, had not bathed in months if not longer, isolated, the list goes on.)

I can say more about improving visits if that helps you, but have talked about myself too much already, and don’t like to presume. 

Please ask questions; you will get good answers.

Also, if you don’t already have one, please find a support group. Thanks to the pandemic many of the Alzheimer’s Association sponsored ones have moved to phone and/or video formats, so you can attend one anywhere. There are literally dozens of support groups five days a week, all over the country. Try a bunch until you find a group you like. It’s so helpful and cannot hurt. 

Please hang in there. This is not easy, but it can be done. Very best wishes to you. 

star26

I definitely know that feeling of being afraid of upsetting a parent, even as an adult, and being afraid of getting in trouble! I’m still kicking myself when I think about times I didn’t speak up when my Dad was doing something financially unwise, because I was afraid of his wrath and didn’t yet feel comfortable in this new role as POA. Other people were telling me “you need to do this, that, and the other” and “who cares if he gets mad?” and I felt like they didn’t really understand the situation and I couldn’t really do those things. It turns out that I was wrong and they were right. On a positive note, it gets easier and for me that feeling of being intimidated by and afraid of making my Dad mad completely went away (for the first time in my life). And I totally agree with Cody about this likely being exacerbated by your Mom’s anxiety on this issue. That’s dementia related. This is going to be better for her emotionally in the long run. It was for my Dad. Two years later, I heard him bragging to one of his friends that he got his daughter to handle all the bookkeeping for him. 

You don’t need to do anything special with the mail forwarding. Just do it online. It’s totally proper and okay. 

The neuro notes you have are perfect. 

You may be okay with leaving the brokerage accounts as-is with their in house protections in place if your Mom is not normally active with this account and if you remove the old brokerage account statements from her apartment along with the broker’s phone number and her account numbers, and don’t give her any new statements. Tell her the balance and that everything looks great if she asks. This can be another company that “no longer sends paper statements”. Play dumb about the missing stuff if she notices. I would also document the conversation you had with the broker putting them on alert. 

The purpose of putting her money in a new account is so she cannot access it. She won’t have the account number or even know about the existence of the account. Ideally, she won’t even know that her closed or empty account is not still holding all her money. With you taking care of everything, she shouldn’t have a need to write checks or want to withdraw cash. You can fill in with fibs until this is no longer a topic of conversation for her. You may need to contact several banks in order to find one that will open the account using your POA. Get it set up while your Mom’s account is still open. 

Regarding POA documentation, it sounds like you are already doing it. You just need to be able to account for where all her money is going, be financially responsible, and seek out the advice of professionals if needed. Do not co-mingle her funds with yours in the same account or borrow money from her funds. Keep receipts for anything you reimburse yourself for and make a note about it if you might forget the details and it’s not on the receipt. Online bank statements, the checkbook register, bills that can be retrieved online, and copies of any bills or invoices that aren’t available online should cover it.  You may never need to account to anyone on anything. It’s only just in case anyone had reason to accuse you of wrongdoing. You don’t owe your Mom any reports unless the POA document says something to this effect. Just tell her the balances or whatever she needs to hear in order to feel good and satisfied. If you think she’d like to look at a “report” maybe you can make something up in Word, with balances and expenditures so she can feel like she’s checking things over. 

Ranting and raving about “she’s doing this and that with my money”, “she’s stealing from me”, etc. etc. are par for the course with dementia. So, if she’s saying this to anyone that knows she's old, in assisted living, or has dementia, they are not going to believe it even if they act like they do with her. If someone in authority truly believes her tales or that you might be doing something wrong, that’s why you have the POA and the Neuro report which will shut them up. Occasionally, I would call people that my Dad told tales to (about how awful I was) because I was worried they believed it, and they always laughed and said "I know that's not true!". 

Hang in there. This really is a one-time transition that will be behind you at some point, and then you can be on to new and different worries!  P.S. Good going on getting your Mom diagnosed and into assisted living. Those are major hurdles. 

BassetHoundAnn

In order to get my mom's mail forwarded I had to take the original POA down to the post office so that the manager could ogle the form. They wouldn't let me do it online and they wouldn't be happy looking at a copy.

Some banks and brokerages do require their own POA forms, but there seems to be a lot of discretion at some of these institutions. Sometimes if you beg and plead and explain that their life will be unbearable dealing with a client with Alzheimer's....really it does work. They'll ultimately accept your POA if it specifically states that you can open and close accounts. 

I found that there was considerable difference among branch managers at my mom's main bank. Some were very helpful indeed. One spoke to my mom and convinced her that she needed to hand her banking affairs over to her daughter and put me as POA on all her accounts (because they didn't want to deal with her repeated hair-brain questions any longer I think), and then she prepared all the paperwork for my mom. The manager at another branch agreed to put a notation on my mom's account that all transactions should be regarded suspiciously. Meanwhile when I called the bank's main office they offered me no help, advise or promises. 

I took my mom's check book, credit cards and driver's license from her purse when she wasn't looking. I also removed bank phone numbers from her wallet and phone book. 

Since my mom was threatening to take a cab to a bank branch and withdraw all her money, and since the bank told me that she could do this by simply presenting any picture I.D., I took her driver's license. In its place I put an "Emergency Elderly State I.D." I created this on one of these web sites where you can create fake state I.D.'s for $5. I made it look very official with a hologram and everything, but no picture, and I included my name and phone number with directions that I should be called immediately if she presents it to anyone. I convinced her that this I.D. was far superior to a driver's license in all regards and she believed it. (Ha!)

I set up credit monitoring on my mom's account since she can still recite her Social Security number and she has a phone where I'm sure scammers can reach her. 

I do show mom her bank account statements every month, which seems to make her happy even though she can't understand them. She frequently asks me about the bills--gas, water, heat, phone, are they getting paid?--and I assure her that I've got everything covered. I think that's what she's most concerned about, that she wants all her bills paid and nothing outstanding. 

Suzy23

RinVA,

I really feel for you and I only wanted to say that I am going through something somewhat similar, although (so far at least) my dad has not been as combative about it as your mom is. 

Thanks to all who are giving advice also, I am going to keep it. 

ButterflyWings

RinVA - Oh boy, do I know what you are going through. Take a deep breath, and just do it! I agree with every single recommendation you've received here. This is exactly what I did, once I finally realized my DH was ill, and well en route to depleting ALL our assets. Please do consider this an emergency of the highest order, and do whatever it takes to disappear checkbooks (and old, or extra checkbooks...I won't tell you how many I ultimately found, confiscated and destroyed), also grab her credit/debit cards, phone numbers, financial statements, written notes with banker names and phone numbers, account numbers, etc., and shred them. I personally would not want AL staff to go through items to take financial things.

For a while, every time my DH left the room, I would RUN to take things from his files and wallet, and replaced his ID etc. with paper copies, which also helped us to have duplicates when needed items went missing. (Missing because he also started rummaging early on, and would retrieve things until I realized how to disappear them totally).

The other thing I learned here, was to freeze all credit immediately (all 3 credit firms) so my DH couldn't get new credit cards, loans, or lines of credit. And no scammers could either.

If it feels like stealing from your LO, it is not. You are protecting them from someone else scamming or stealing it, or her just p**sing it away. Who will pay for her care over the rest of her life, if she gets wiped out financially before you step in? Maybe imagine you are the hero/heroine in a movie and have to save this person with amnesia from certain ruin. Because that really is what's at stake. And it can happen in the blink of an eye. You can do it!

Battlebuddy

  I agree that this can be one of the toughest pivot points with Alzheimer’s. With my husband, I had never paid the bills in 27 years of marriage. So taking over the finances was an eye opener and a big deal for me. One of my husbands first symptoms of Alzheimer’s was that he kept loosing his bank card . I was very worried about his ability to loose funds. 

   What worked for me was to set up a separate account within our bank. At this bank you could have other checking accounts under your name and transfer money between accounts. I took over our big account and added  an account with between 200 and 500 dollars in it. I gave him a check book with that new account number. I could check the account online.  Does anyone really know their account numbers by heart? So it worked. If he needed to make a purchase at target he used the new switched bank card . After a while he stopped using the cards but I never had to take away his access to money. I would also give him cash that we could afford to loose - about 60 dollars and he felt empowered to have that money on him. I assume it’s different for assisted living but that is what worked for us.

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