A busy day, but a rant regardless

Ed1937

This may be my only post today. We've been banking at Chase for more than 30 years, but we're getting away from them. They didn't like our POA, while others have told me how great it was written. And I even used it to buy another home, with no problem. So I'm going with another bank who has no problem at all with it. 

One of our daughters has DPOA for me, and is a trustee on our trust. I wanted her to have full access to our banking because she might need it in the near future. No problem at all with another bank. 

I wanted to get my wife's SS check to be deposited in the new account each month, so I called SS this morning. After being on hold for 1/2 hour, I talked to one of their reps. I told her what we wanted to do, and I told her I knew she had to talk to my wife. I thought she could just tell them it's OK for me to handle everything. She asked my wife where she was born. No problem. Then she wanted her SS#, address, and birth date. She couldn't answer those questions, and they would not allow me to help her. AARGH!  But our daughter came up with a work around, and everything is finally done! Don't know what I'd do without her. 

Lp57$

Ed isn't that crazy about SS!!??  When my DH was in the early stages thank goodness he could answer the questions, because they basically accused me of trying to take advantage of him..  I  am sure it happens, but they make things so complicated...  I am glad you have your daughter to help.. My son is going with me to see my Elder Care Lawyer so we can get this taken care of.. I wished he could be more help, but he works a full time job and is on the fire dept.  I hope you have a good rest of the day!

aod326

You could certainly do without that frustration, on top of everything else!

Reminds me of the last time I traveled out of the country with DH. He had a one-year temporary passport because he'd lost the previous one a couple of months earlier, on our second-to-last trip. At Passport Control the officer asked DH a lot of questions that DH just couldn't answer, regarding where he'd had the passport replaced, what had happened etc.  I tried answering and was told to step away and not answer for him. I tried telling them that he had dementia - which went down really well with DH! - but it made no difference. I had visions of being jailed, but I think the guy just got too frustrated with DH and let us through.

I'm scrolling through the boards as I wait online (1 hour and 10 mins so far) for Bank of America to explain why they froze the entire custodial account for my DH who died 2.5 weeks ago, without telling me they were going to freeze it. Just on Friday I had transferred money from my savings for his funeral expenses which, as everyone knows is very expensive, so I'm a bit mad.

Your daughter always sounds like such a treasure!

jfkoc

just read about the Dynatrap Ultralight...does not kill the good bugs...opinions???

jfkoc

Ah, the work-around. They really have no idea who is answering their questions and only know the sex of who they are talking to.

Crushed

I am DW's Social Security representative payee.  Their representatives are trained to deal with an root out fraud.  If they get a whiff of suspicion they will initiate an investigation.  

the rules are clear

The Treasury Department does not recognize power of attorney for negotiating federal payments, including Social Security or SSI checks. This means, if you have power of attorney for someone who is incapable of managing his or her own benefits, you must still apply to serve as his or her payee.

 You wrote

  . I thought she could just tell them it's OK for me to handle everything. She asked my wife where she was born. No problem. Then she wanted her SS#, address, and birth date. She couldn't answer those questions, and they would not allow me to help her.

I can tell you that they absolutely will not allow that 
 

I have no idea what you mean as a "work around"  but if it involved calling back and someone pretending to be her, it's a federal crime. It sis not uncommon for the agent who has suspicions of competence to note it in the record and then when someone calls who is clear as a bell , the alarms go off.

" Both you and your representative are responsible for providing us with accurate information. It is illegal to provide false information knowingly or willfully. If you do, you may face criminal prosecution"

https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10075.pdf

 

  

Crushed

aod326 wrote:

.

I'm scrolling through the boards as I wait online (1 hour and 10 mins so far) for Bank of America to explain why they froze the entire custodial account for my DH who died 2.5 weeks ago, without telling me they were going to freeze it. Just on Friday I had transferred money from my savings for his funeral expenses which, as everyone knows is very expensive, so I'm a bit mad. 

  

Frankly I have never heard of ANYONE transferring money INTO a custodial account for a deceased person

Custodial accounts are almost always POD or TOD on the death of the beneficiary.  They can't be used for funerals unless the estate is the beneficiary and the custodian is the personal representative. 

If you are the beneficiary you have no problem the money goes to your account but if you are not you will need to present death certificates to show the mony was transferred after death,
 
Part of the legal stuff we deal with is making sure people know what to do when someone dies.  its not do it yourself 

Joe C.

Ed, They don’t make it easy do they! I glad you found a way to work things out.

aod326

Thanks for your support Crushed. I am not stupid. I am the sole beneficiary, personal representative and custodian.  All of DH's expenses for MC etc have been paid from this account, on the advice of my accountant and CELA. Everyone on these message boards, including you, is dealing with a difficult life situation. Please remember that other people have brains too.

Crushed

aod326 wrote:

Thanks for your support Crushed. I am not stupid. I am the sole beneficiary, personal representative and custodian.  All of DH's expenses for MC etc have been paid from this account, on the advice of my accountant and CELA. Everyone on these message boards, including you, is dealing with a difficult life situation. Please remember that other people have brains too.

Please It's a question of LAW not brains.  Funeral expenses are not HIS expenses.   They are ESTATE expenses. they are paid by the estate.   

  Did your lawyer explain how to handle a death?    It's part of their job.  

If you are the beneficiary of the custodial account it should have been paid to you directly in  your personal capacity  

https://www.legacy.com/advice/can-i-use-money-from-the-estate-to-pay-funeral-costs/

French

It’s difficult to discover that people can’t imagine what dementia is and add diffulties .

Two examples.

Social security has summoned my partner for a control. On the same day I had an appointment for a surgery for my son. I called to change the date. The answer. »you can’t come , it’s not a problem, we don’t need you but only him. » «  yes but he can’t come alone ». «  call an ambulance « . End of the discussion. I had to send a letter explaining the situation.

Home loan Insurance also summoned him recently for a control. It was a doctor. She directly asked him the date of his fist sick leave and a huge list of information. I wanted to answer but was stopped. « No, he is the one who is questioned « . I was really shocked. You imagine that he was unable to answer and that she had to question me « yes he has Alzheimer’s, he can’t answer ». She finally apologized and continue to apologize because she had to continue to question him «  do you know who I am » « not sure but you are certainly somebody who wants to help me », « what season it is ? « « two thousand... I don’t remember exactly « . And then she decided to stop questioning him, apologized again and told me «  give me all the documents you have. I'll get the insurance to leave you alone and pay the installments »

Even doctors or health professionals are not listening ... why banks would be ?

Ed1937

Crushed wrote:

I have no idea what you mean as a "work around"  but if it involved calling back and someone pretending to be her, it's a federal crime. 

I think most people here understand that it means getting the job done in another way. That's exactly what she did, but it did not include another phone call, with someone else acting like they were her. It was a perfectly legal maneuver. She has more sense than to get in trouble with the feds.

I am 100% in favor of stopping fraud, but they could make it a little easier for people who are dealing with someone who can't remember a lot of things others have no trouble with. Why couldn't they ask me all the questions they asked her, but pertaining to me? That could verify who I was, and I could give them the information they needed from her.

 

  

Crushed

French wrote:

It’s difficult to discover that people can’t imagine what dementia is and add diffulties .

Two examples.

Social security has summoned my partner for a control. On the same day I had an appointment for a surgery for my son. I called to change the date. The answer. »you can’t come , it’s not a problem, we don’t need you but only him. » «  yes but he can’t come alone ». «  call an ambulance « . End of the discussion. I had to send a letter explaining the situation.

Home loan Insurance also summoned him recently for a control. It was a doctor. She directly asked him the date of his fist sick leave and a huge list of information. I wanted to answer but was stopped. « No, he is the one who is questioned « . I was really shocked. You imagine that he was unable to answer and that she had to question me « yes he has Alzheimer’s, he can’t answer ». She finally apologized and continue to apologize because she had to continue to question him «  do you know who I am » « not sure but you are certainly somebody who wants to help me », « what season it is ? « « two thousand... I don’t remember exactly « . And then she decided to stop questioning him, apologized again and told me «  give me all the documents you have. I'll get the insurance to leave you alone and pay the installments »

Even doctors or health professionals are not listening ... why banks would be ?

Do you hold the "Procuration" or "mandat de protection future"  for your partner ?  (please pardon me if I have the term wrong.  ? 

Crushed

Ed1937 wrote:

Crushed wrote:

I have no idea what you mean as a "work around"  but if it involved calling back and someone pretending to be her, it's a federal crime. 

I think most people here understand that it means getting the job done in another way. That's exactly what she did, but it did not include another phone call, with someone else acting like they were her. It was a perfectly legal maneuver. She has more sense than to get in trouble with the feds.

I am 100% in favor of stopping fraud, but they could make it a little easier for people who are dealing with someone who can't remember a lot of things others have no trouble with. Why couldn't they ask me all the questions they asked her, but pertaining to me? That could verify who I was, and I could give them the information they needed from her.

Because, as I have tried to explain before by law ONLY a representative payee  or other authorized person can deals with social security payments on a person's behalf.  They do not accept  powers of attorney as authorization. Its not a question of verification Its a question of law.    

  The Treasury Department does not recognize power of attorney for negotiating federal payments, including Social Security or SSI checks. This means, if you have power of attorney for someone who is incapable of managing his or her own benefits, you must still apply to serve as his or her payee.

 From AARP

Can I manage my mother’s Social Security if I have power of attorney?

AARP|Comments: 6

 

 

En español | No. The Social Security Administration does not recognize power of attorney as conferring authority to manage another person’s benefits. Nor is it sufficient to have your name on your mother’s bank account or be her authorized representative. To manage a parent’s Social Security, you have to be appointed a representative payee by Social Security.

https://www.aarp.org/retirement/social-security/questions-answers/manage-mothers-benefit.html
  

David J

So if SSA doesn’t accept a POA, and the PWD can’t speak for herself or sign her name, how does one get assigned as representative payee?

LadyTexan

Dear Ed and aod326. 

I am sending hugs to you. 

Dealing with financial institutions such as banks has not been an issue for us YET. But I clearly recall the headache I had with the Texas Employee Retirement System regarding naming a beneficiary for my retirement account. My attorney was consulted. The retirement system was not budging. I was in a circular loop of getting nowhere. The Texas Attorney General was brought in based on my request for information. In the end, ERS did not provide the criterion guiding their decision. 

It was an energy sucking, bureaucratic headache. The end result was not my preferred result. I am not seeking legal guidance regarding what happened or did not happen in my case. I am sending hugs because I understand how incredibly frustrating it is.

Blessings to you both.

Ed1937

Like I said, Crushed, they could make it a little easier. I'm not arguing whether it is the law or not. If the reason for the law is to stop fraud, and the questions for her satisfy their question if it actually is her, asking the same questions of someone else should identify them to the feds. Then if there is fraud, it should be easy enough to get the culprit. The laws should not make it so hard for everyone. THAT is my rant!

June45

aod and Ed, you have my complete sympathy.  I had DPOA for my mom when she was alive and after she had a debilitating stroke along with global aphasia, I had to move her from her apartment to a long term care facility.  I needed to change her address at her banks and two of her banks refused to honor the DPOA simply to change her address.  I was finally able to do it and no Crush, it didn't involve fraud so please don't lecture me with your large letters.

June45

P.S. Ed,

When I had to change my mom's address with Social Security, I already knew that they wouldn't honor the DPOA.  So I went down to our local Social Security office with my mom's doctor's report regarding her medical condition.  I told them I wanted to change my mom's address because she was disabled and had to move to a long term care facility. I gave the agent the doctor's report and after looking at it briefly, he excused himself and came back with the paperwork for me to sign to change her address and even asked me if I wanted to be representative payee, which I didn't. Of course, I had to show my ID and SS card. 

Lills

I totally understand the frustration with the SS!  

Back in 2004, I went to the SS office to file a change of address for my mother, who moved to a MC in Madison.  The clerk scolded me as if I was a child because I didn't know I needed to be a Personal Representative; my POA was not accepted.  Ok fine.... She then told me my mother needed to sign the document!  I told her she had Alz. and could no longer sign her name and that she lived in a different city and state.  When I showed her buy mother's bank statements, she scolded me more!  Yes, my name was on her account.  I added my name while I was with her at the bank years before.  The clerk made me feel as if I was stealing my mother's meager SS checks.  I showed her the amount of her SS check and the cost of her monthly MC.  I told her that I and my 2 sisters were paying for the extras--anything she needed (phone, weekly hair appts. clothing, treats, etc. etc. etc.)  

The conversation came to a head when the clerk saw that my mother's middle name ANN was spelled ANNE on some SS document.  By then, I was in tears.  I thought 'they' were going to arrest me  Tearful, I asked to speak to her supervisor.  I explained everything to her...five minutes later, all was well.  

I know the clerk was doing her job...but I wouldn't wish this experience on anyone.  17 years later, I'm still mad!  

Crushed

David J wrote:

So if SSA doesn’t accept a POA, and the PWD can’t speak for herself or sign her name, how does one get assigned as representative payee?

You apply to social security

  https://www.ssa.gov/payee/

 Social Security's Representative Payment Program provides benefit payment management for our beneficiaries who are incapable of managing their Social Security or Supplemental Security Income (SSI) payments. We appoint a suitable representative payee (payee) who manages the payments on behalf of the beneficiaries. Generally, we look for family or friends to serve as payees.

Crushed

June45 wrote:

P.S. Ed,

When I had to change my mom's address with Social Security, I already knew that they wouldn't honor the DPOA.  So I went down to our local Social Security office with my mom's doctor's report regarding her medical condition.  I told them I wanted to change my mom's address because she was disabled and had to move to a long term care facility. I gave the agent the doctor's report and after looking at it briefly, he excused himself and came back with the paperwork for me to sign to change her address and even asked me if I wanted to be representative payee, which I didn't. Of course, I had to show my ID and SS card. 

That is not a bank account and payment, its a different process 
 A claimant may appoint a qualified individual to represent him or her in doing business with Social Security. The appointment must be in writing and must be filed with SSA. ... You may use a Form SSA-1696 (Appointment of Representative) for this purpose

Crushed

Lills wrote:

I totally understand the frustration with the SS!  

Back in 2004, I went to the SS office to file a change of address for my mother, who moved to a MC in Madison.  The clerk scolded me as if I was a child because I didn't know I needed to be a Personal Representative; my POA was not accepted.  Ok fine.... She then told me my mother needed to sign the document!  I told her she had Alz. and could no longer sign her name and that she lived in a different city and state.  When I showed her buy mother's bank statements, she scolded me more!  Yes, my name was on her account.  I added my name while I was with her at the bank years before.  The clerk made me feel as if I was stealing my mother's meager SS checks.  I showed her the amount of her SS check and the cost of her monthly MC.  I told her that I and my 2 sisters were paying for the extras--anything she needed (phone, weekly hair appts. clothing, treats, etc. etc. etc.)  

The conversation came to a head when the clerk saw that my mother's middle name ANN was spelled ANNE on some SS document.  By then, I was in tears.  I thought 'they' were going to arrest me  Tearful, I asked to speak to her supervisor.  I explained everything to her...five minutes later, all was well.  

I know the clerk was doing her job...but I wouldn't wish this experience on anyone.  17 years later, I'm still mad!  

There are TWO separate processes   If the recipient is COMPETENT and capable. they can appoint a personal representative for routine matters .
If it involves payments OR the person is not competent and capable then you have to apply and be accepted as a Representative Payee

I wanted to turn off DWs Medicare .  Since it involves payments i had to be a Representative Payee

June45

Crushed wrote:

June45 wrote:

P.S. Ed,

When I had to change my mom's address with Social Security, I already knew that they wouldn't honor the DPOA.  So I went down to our local Social Security office with my mom's doctor's report regarding her medical condition.  I told them I wanted to change mom's address because she was disabled and had to move to a long term care facility. I gave the agent the doctor's report and after looking at it briefly, he excused himself and came back with the paperwork for me to sign to change her address and even asked me if I wanted to be representative payee, which I didn't. Of course, I had to show my ID and SS card. 

That is not a bank account and payment, its a different process 
 A claimant may appoint a qualified individual to represent him or her in doing business with Social Security. The appointment must be in writing and must be filed with SSA. ... You may use a Form SSA-1696 (Appointment of Representative) for this purpose

Crushed, I never said this post was about a bank account. The problems I had with my mom's banks and the Social Security office were 2 separate events which I talked about in 2 separate posts. The 2 events were handled in entirely different ways. This post was about my experience at the Social Security office Are you doubting my experience at the Social Security office and how they handled it?  If so, take it up with them. 

Crushed

Ed1937 wrote:

Like I said, Crushed, they could make it a little easier. I'm not arguing whether it is the law or not. If the reason for the law is to stop fraud, and the questions for her satisfy their question if it actually is her, asking the same questions of someone else should identify them to the feds. Then if there is fraud, it should be easy enough to get the culprit. The laws should not make it so hard for everyone. THAT is my rant!

My academic field is regulation, primarily technical but also financial.  The representative payee process is acutually one of the simplest regulatory structures I've ever seen.  You can even designate a representative payee in advance with Social security.  Spousal representative payees have almost no reporting requirements.

   

Crushed

LadyTexan wrote:

Dear Ed and aod326. 

I am sending hugs to you. 

Dealing with financial institutions such as banks has not been an issue for us YET. But I clearly recall the headache I had with the Texas Employee Retirement System regarding naming a beneficiary for my retirement account. My attorney was consulted. The retirement system was not budging. I was in a circular loop of getting nowhere. The Texas Attorney General was brought in based on my request for information. In the end, ERS did not provide the criterion guiding their decision. 

It was an energy sucking, bureaucratic headache. The end result was not my preferred result. I am not seeking legal guidance regarding what happened or did not happen in my case. I am sending hugs because I understand how incredibly frustrating it is.

Blessings to you both.

I had to sue OPM to properly recalculate  DWs FERS annuity.  Sure it can be a PITA  but the system for naming a beneficiary seem to be the same as we have in Md.  https://ers.texas.gov/Beneficiary-Designation The issue that always comes up is trying to name a non spouse as a survivor.  beneficiary.  Our system simply does not allow it for defined benefit pensions.   it is easy for defined contribution payments.

I was the pension expert for our statewide faculty council.  I led lots of fights with the  Bureaucrats.    

Jo C.

Hi there Ed; I will not try to overtake your Thread, just my own experience.   I was my LOs agent on their DPOAs.  To my utter surprise, the large bank refused to honor my LOs DPOAs; the bank had their own POA they used and it would take weeks before getting it through their legal office.  My folks needed immediate financial assistance as they both had trouble managing and I was not going to piffle around with the bank's paperwork and who knew if it would be approved or not by the legal team.

So; what I did was have my name placed on my mother and step-dad's bank accounts - checking and the two savings accounts.  They were fine with that; in fact, they were relieved.  Social Security was already sending the checks to one account which was a savings - why the LOs did that, I do not know. So; each month when the SS check came in, I simply went online and transferred those funds to checking which was needed.  I was glad to have it that way as becoming their SS Representative Payee had some hoops to jump through as well as mandated reports and I did not need any more "stuff."  To change the account routing from one account to another would take convolutions which I continued to try and avoid due to already being on near overload.

Because my name was on the accounts I was, for bank transactions, considered an "owner," of the account by the bank.  We managed this way for literally years without a single hiccup. This was very helpful and after the LOs passed away, it kept things far more simple as I was still listed as an owner. 

This also made it easy for me to do a monthly Financial Accounting Report to siblings once the parents were both compromised by different dementias.  I sent monthly reports listing all accounts and balances. If I had to use money from savings due to a shortfall between bills and SS and pension income, I could list that clearly.  I also listed each check written to whom and for what; it really went a long way in maintaining good relationships with the sibs on both sides of the family.

We each find our own way through things as needs evolve.  Kudos by the way to your amazing daughter; she is a treasure and a very loving person who really puts herself where the rubber hits the road for her parents.  

J.

Ed1937

Jo C. wrote:

 Kudos by the way to your amazing daughter; she is a treasure and a very loving person who really puts herself where the rubber hits the road for her parents.  

Jo, she has long covid problems. She has constant body aches, headaches, mild memory problems, nausea, and is very tired. I honestly don't know how she does it all. But she does.

Last Dance

 What you have to remember is that these laws were written by lawyers, (most who are politicians themselves) so that even the their fellow politicians that make them into law do not read them or understand them, because something that can be written in 10 pages take a 1000 pages, and the bureaucrats that enforce them really haven’t a clue about them, or understand them so they just do what makes their self’s happy, and you miserable. They are written so that you can’t handle them yourself and, are forced to  hire a lawyer to handle them for you, it’s a system to make sure that there is enough work for all lawyers to stay in business even the overpriced incompetent ones. Yes we need laws to protect our love ones, something simple that we who are dealing with Alzheimer’s or other problems of the mind could handle without all this BS that we get from business that wouldn’t honor our DOPA, or other legal papers, but that would be too easy and make too much sense for the average Politian to understand, and then you would have all those poor unemployed lowery’s.

Crushed

June45 wrote:

Crushed wrote:

June45 wrote:

P.S. Ed,

W

Crushed, I never said this post was about a bank account. The problems I had with my mom's banks and the Social Security office were 2 separate events which I talked about in 2 separate posts. The 2 events were handled in entirely different ways. This post was about my experience at the Social Security office Are you doubting my experience at the Social Security office and how they handled it?  If so, take it up with them.

I did not respond to your bank account  post since other people in this thread were dealing with SS payment issues  that was the issue of concern .    I was distinguishing the two  for the benefit of  the entire group.  

Here is your bank post  
aod and Ed, you have my complete sympathy.  I had DPOA for my mom when she was alive and after she had a debilitating stroke along with global aphasia, I had to move her from her apartment to a long term care facility.  I needed to change her address at her banks and two of her banks refused to honor the DPOA simply to change her address.  I was finally able to do it and no Crush, it didn't involve fraud so please don't lecture me with your large letters.

This is a totally different issue. The lecture in this case is that noone needs to take a DPOA unless a state law requires it.  People routinely believe DPOAs are magic,   They are not.  Over the years we have had numerous discussions on the topic   Since you don't put your state in your profile I have no way of knowing what the law is in you state.  I simply try to help people with legal problems know what the law is. 
Here is the Maryland statute as an example

  

 17-104. Statutory form mandatory; violations; penalties.
  (a)  Statutory form mandatory.- A person may not require an additional or different form of power of attorney for any authority granted in a statutory form power of attorney.

(b)  Violations; penalties.- A person that refuses in violation of this section to accept an acknowledged statutory form power of attorney is subject to: 

(1) A court order mandating acceptance of the power of attorney; and 

(2) Liability for reasonable attorney's fees and costs incurred in an action or proceeding that confirms the validity of the power of attorney or mandates acceptance of the power of attorney. 

  
 
 



  

Iris L.

Crushed wrote:

Lills wrote:

I wanted to turn off DWs Medicare .  

---

For what reason would a person want to "turn off" Medicare? 

 Personally, I can think of no reason to turn off my Medicare.  

Iris