Secret over spending

slhforwmh

My father is showing increased signs of Dementia/Alzheimers and my mom is POA. I have stepped up to try and help her and take over my dad's role as bill payer, problem solver for their home. This is new territory and I'm looking for support and advice on how to deal with him. For the last few months he has been secretly buying expensive things. Mom confronted him the first time and he said he wouldn't do it again, but he lied and continues to do so. I spoke with him and told him the things he was buying weren't necessary because he already has a ton of what he is buying, but that didn't phase him. We are talking thousands of dollars here. We aren't sure what to do? He isn't to the point where we can take away his credit cards without him having a meltdown. Any advise would be helpful. Thx

Fairyland

That sounds very tricky for you all. What sort of things are they. Are they collectibles that were or have become a special interest? Or on financial ground, is the frivolous  expenditure depriving them of money required for essential needs. I think that without more evidence that this is a disease issue, and probably even with evidence,  it will be hard to stop him buying whatever he wants, whenever he wants, as long as he can shop . Maybe someone with more experience has some good ideas.

terei

I assume that your father has been diagnosed with dementia.  You have to cut off the means that he is using to purchase these items.  That means cancelling credit cards, closing checkin accounts + cutting up debit cards + limiting access to the internet + even the phone, if necessary.

Yes, he is gong to have a meltdown.   Another good move is to have bills start to be sent to a P.o. box or another address that he has no knowledge of.  It is not difficult to have all mail come to your home if it is close enough.  What he does not see, will probably not upset him.

By the time you persuade your father to quit spending money, they could be in the poor house. Hopefully, he is at a stage where he cannot figure out how to open new accounts on his own + when he realizes his access to money is cut off, you may be able to deflect questions with answers like ‘ oh, your credit card is missing?  I will look into that right away’ (repeat repeat repeat) or ‘huh, the computer is not working?   wow, I will go home + call immediately about getting it fixed’

There are cases even on this board of LO’s squandering hundreds of thousands on day trading, buying cars, sending money to solicitors legal + otherwise.

Confronting him +  trying to get him to stop will not accomplish what you want.  Work behind the scenes to shut down his access + commiserate with him as needed when things are not working for him.    Take control, with your mother.  Your father should not be in the loop about any of this.  He does not have the capability of making cogent decisions about how money should be spent.    Dont argue with him, just do it.

M1

Hi slh and welcome to the forum, though sorry for the issues that bring you here.  This is a common issue and I've had it too with my partner, who is 80 and a formerly very successful businesswoman.  Losing control of her finances has been a big issue and it's not over yet.  Last year was particularly bad with overbuying pet food (though that's not thousands of dollars) and giving exorbitant amounts of money to animal charities.  Covid helped keep her out of the stores, though, and I stopped all mail solicitations, and those I can't stop I try to intercept and throw away so she never sees them.  Just today she wanted me to mail a "letter"--it was  $1000 check to another charity.  I tore it up, and I no longer have compunctions about doing that.  Half the time now if she tries to write a check, she either dates it wrong or forgets to sign it.  Fortunately, she is no longer using a computer at all, and never did use a smart phone, so that has made it somewhat easier.

Is he buying things online, or by telephone?  If it's online, you may have to change the wifi password so that he doesn't have internet access (but that may be difficult if your mom uses it).  If it's by telephone, you may have to disable the credit card and start a new one in your mom's name only.  You may have to creatively fib about these things---you'll see that that's a common strategy here--the bank stopped it, we don't know what's taking so long; there's an internet outage in our whole area, they said it would be a few days/weeks....No clear easy answers.  Maybe others will have suggestions for you.  I now pay almost all routine bills online, and while she will ask to look at the statements, she no longer objects to this--in fact now has forgotten about most of it.  Some of this will get easier as times goes on and his disease advances, but it is in fact a common issue early on.

Good luck--if your mom has a good relationship with someone at their bank, that may help.  Our banker and investment advisor and accountant are all very aware of our situation, and that helps immensely.

May flowers

My MIL had to hide the credit cards early on for the reasons you describe. She took over bill paying but he still stressed over it. We took it over when she became too sick (cancer) to mess with it and had all his bills and his mail forwarded here, or set to pay online and such. When he would ask, we would provide a bank statement to show everything was being handled and paid.

If he has the credit card numbers memorized, you may have to have your mom report them stolen or lost.

Many people have to use fiblets to avoid upsetting their LOs, maybe tell him the cards had to be blocked because of unauthorized use and they would send a new one. Maybe he will forget.

We ended up changing his bank and online passwords too, like Amazon. 

towhee

slhforwmh, Hi. It is wonderful that you are helping your mother. I am assuming that your father has a diagnosis of Alzheimers or another dementia? 

One of the hardest things to accept is that our loved ones have changed in some fundamental ways. They look the same, they sound the same. in many ways they act the same, but they are not. Their brain is slowly failing. In some cases what you see first is memory loss, in some bad judgement, in some obsessive behavior. In order to cope with caring for them while keeping our sanity, we have to let go of expecting them to be all that they were, or for their behavior to always meet normal standards. Your father might mean what he says in the moment that he says it, and then totally and completely forget what he promised, or, the obsessive behavior might override his ability to keep his promise (unreasonable buying is common in dementia). Reasoning and logic slowly become things he cannot hold on to. We learn to accept this and learn to work around it. We learn fiblets. 

Specific financial advice-

Have your mom register her POA with all of their banks and financial institutions and make sure they will accept it. Some banks want to use their own POA forms. Some won't accept a POA that has been signed more than a couple years. Do this first, in case he has to sign something new, you don't want him angry about something else you've done. After that, have her tell them to flag the accounts for unusual activity.

Put a freeze on his credit with the credit agencies, so he can't get or replace cards and he is not so susceptible to scammers.

As others have said go to online banking and bill paying or pay bills by automatic draft.

Have financial statements sent to a PO Box or another address if possible. Fill out that "do not send me junk mail" form. 

How is he buying- in person or online or by mail, Think about ways to slow it down that don't involve reason or expecting him to do what he says.

Have your mother consult an elder lawyer, one who does a large part of their in elder law, often a CELA,( nelf.org) who can help you plan for the future. 

Then, maybe, have the credit cards go thru the wash etc, if necessary replace slowly with secured cards that have lower limit.

Take care-

harshedbuzz

slhforwmh wrote:

My father is showing increased signs of Dementia/Alzheimers and my mom is POA.

I'm confused.

Does he have an actual Alzheimer's diagnosis and is progressing symptomatically or is this a situation where he has increasing symptoms but not diagnosed? If it's the former, your mom not only has the right to step in with the POA, by naming her his agent back before his cognitive shift, he has obligated her to act on his behalf. Taking over isn't something she does to him, it's something she does for him. 

If he doesn't have a diagnosis, an evaluation should be scheduled asap. There are some conditions that mimic dementia that are treatable and sometimes reversible. 

I have stepped up to try and help her and take over my dad's role as bill payer, problem solver for their home.

It is great that you can be there for them both in this way. I had no qualms inserting myself into medical and household management, but getting all up in their financials was harder for me. Mom had managed the household money, so she was OK there but dad had made a mess of the investments and she had no experience dealing with that kind of thing. But it had to be done- dad had daytraded away $350,000 dabbling in the market. There's no do-over for that. It's money gone and became an issue when placement became necessary. It limited our options as I had to try to conserve money when/if mom needed professional care. She's got macular degeneration and osteoporosis- odds are she will need help going forward.

The spending thing is critical because this is a disease that impoverishes people. Dementia only goes in one direction. At some point, your dad will require a higher level of care and unless they have a fabulous LTC policy that all comes out of pocket. At the very least, it's likely you will need home health aides from time to time and potentially placement in a MCF should care at home not work out. Ideally, you'd want money left over for your mom's own care should she need it later. 

This is new territory and I'm looking for support and advice on how to deal with him. For the last few months he has been secretly buying expensive things. Mom confronted him the first time and he said he wouldn't do it again, but he lied and continues to do so. I spoke with him and told him the things he was buying weren't necessary because he already has a ton of what he is buying, but that didn't phase him. We are talking thousands of dollars here. We aren't sure what to do?

The first thing you can do is to stop violating the cardinal rule of Alzheimer's- never try to reason with a person who has a "broken reasoner". He may look the same, but his brain is diseased and no longer has the higher order thinking or memory understand a reasoned argument, agree to a plan of action and follow through. 

He isn't to the point where we can take away his credit cards without him having a meltdown.

You take the cards and you endure the meltdown. It's very like stopping them from driving. It sucks. But you still have to take the steps to protect them both financially. Towhee gave you a comprehensive list of steps you need to take yesterday.

If the meltdown escalates to a risk of harm, then you have him transported to the hospital in your area that offers a geriatric psychiatric service for medication management. You'll need to call ahead of time so you know which this is in your area and to be certain they have a bed available or where they're sending patients. 

To that end, one option might be to get him a reloadable GC on which you put some spending money. If he goes over his limit, you could explain the situation as having been hacked and bank is looking into it. That said, this sometimes makes the situation worse. Sometimes removing the means to spending as a trigger is necessary. 

I am sorry you have to deal with all this. 

 Any advise would be helpful. Thx

Rescue mom

You’ve already gotten lots of good advice that I second. Especially that you cannot reason or use logic with him anymore.  And, if he doesn’t control his spending, somebody else has to take over.  Re-read what Harshedbuzz said.

Hide the bills, get the cards and tell him the cards were taken back, or expired and new ones come soon/later/next week, etc. Other ideas above. We all use fiblets and talk around things to avoid upsetting the person, and that’s best. 

But sometimes those tactics fail, and you have to do things, for his and others’ safety and well-being, that upset them. You don’t let a toddler play in the road for a tantrum. You don’t let a 3-yo take control of the car—or eat bug spray, or swim alone in the lake—even if he cries. It’s really, really hard when we have to be the parent for our parents, but sometimes that’s what it takes to keep them safe. 

Hopefully, other measures work; keeping related paperwork out of sight helps keep it out of mind.

ebplionis

I second the idea that if he isn't diagnosed, please take him to be evaluated ASAP.  When my mother had her neuropsychology exam, and I explained some of what was happening financially, the neuropsychologist not only saw in the analysis she literally couldn't handle money, but made a point in the summary notes for my mothers neurologist to state she should not be handling finances, and the neurologist was able to provide the doctors notes for financial institutions that I could use my DPOA without notifying my mother.  

After that comes the tricky part, as financial freedom means so much to so many people.  On the advice I read here, I decided not to tell her "i'm taking away your cards,"  that would have been the one thing she would have remembered and it would have crushed her.  After a particularly bad spending episode and after much internal debating on my part and assurance from family, I took them out of her purse and locked them up away from her when she went to bed.  Then in the morning I "reminded" her she lost them, but we have already sent for new ones and they should be there any day now.  I am still shocked by how well it worked.  No hard feelings from her that I took them away or "betrayed" her, and whenever she asks I say, oh its only been a week or so, I'm sure they will arrive any day now.  Its been since mid-march.  

This is the hardest thing I've certainly ever done, and your journey with your family will be different and also ridiculously difficult.  Good luck with everything.

ButterflyWings

slhforwmh Oh my - you are bringing back memories for me. What terei and others said. I urge you to follow every word. This is not sneaking or secret activity but it is uncontrollable given dementia. You don't need to tell him that the spending spree is over. Just stop the bleeding before it is too late.

Once I finally learned that we were in serious financial trouble (foreclosure, bankruptcy, etc.) it was so far down the road and I was shocked! to learn what was being paid, what wasn't, and that my DH not only lacked his former excellent judgement...he also had absolutely no recollection of his actions even immediately afterward. 

To convince myself I guess, I actually just watched him for a while one night, when he was "working" at his desk after hours. Who knew? It was almost as if he was in a daze...he barely noticed me as he fixated on an infomercial on his laptop, and at end DH followed their instructions to the letter. Pulled out his wallet and entered his debit card number for a recurring subscription to some scam -- an immediate debit for small 3 figures, but it was to repeat every month! I stood right there behind him and snapped a photo with my phone. Waited until he went to sleep and called them to cancel, then called the bank the next day to dispute it just in case. And also found several other suspicious recurring charges on the bank statements going back a couple of years. Meanwhile some important bills were going unpaid and...well now we know this is a major early warning sign of dementia. And he had zero memory of doing any of it. Same for big bank withdrawals, and it was a real bad time.

I agree it is best to act as urgently as you would if a thief had stolen his identity and had access to his finances. You wouldn't ask their permission or tell them your plans. You'd just cut it off quickly. Please do. This is money they will need for his care and their basic survival in the future. Don't wait.

Once I realized what was happening, I took every piece of good advice learned in this forum:  I put blocks on his credit with the 3 big ones so he couldn't get new loans, closed accounts, got myself added to the others while he was still semi-cooperative, cancelled cards, deleted bookmarked websites, intercepted incoming checks, disappeared junk mail, changed computer passwords, and acted like it was up to me to prevent complete total financial ruin...because it is. And then I, too got amnesia: "Oh wow", "Are you sure?", "OK I'll call the bank to check on that tomorrow", "No, I haven't seen your card/phone/passwords, etc. but I can help you look after lunch...". Alz changed everything and the best thing to do is put the preventive measures in place sooner than later.

You won't regret it. And playing dumb in this situation is often the kindest, wisest thing versus trying to reason with someone whose reasoner is broken as they said. Good luck! You got this!

King Boo

A life savings can be gone in the click of a mouse; with information given away to a stranger- elder theft is a profession.

Your Dad is beyond vulnerable; he is at risk.  And your Mom may be POA but she is in too deep to do anything to stop the financial bleeding.

You don't chat; you DO.  Take BOTH their credit cards; have Mom get a new one in her name only-this removes her temptation to give into her husband.  The conversation to Dad goes like this "Someone stole your credit card information!  They had to cancel the cards!"   When he wonders why Mom has one and he doesn't "That account had to be closed to protect you"  "It'll take a while for things to be sorted out."

Before you do that, FREEZE (not a fraud alert, a FREEZE) both of their credit reports with Experian, Equifax and Transunion.  This will prevent a new credit line or card, mortgage, loan, house refinance, etc. being taken out.  Whether it be by your Dad, or someone with their personal information.   This is very easy to do - they give you passcodes if you ever need to temporarily lift the credit freeze.

Credit monitering does nothing, only alerts you AFTER the damage is done.  FREEZE IT.

Get put on their primary checking account; your name need not be on the checks, but if you go with Mom and present it as (so I can keep an eye on things with the computer for you) it should be fine.  Low key  - - - - no huge talks about they are not competent, safe, etc.  Say what gets done, what you need done.    Banks prefer their own paperwork.  Getting a DPOA on is a lot more work and fraught with headaches.

Speaking of DPOA - having a diagnosis of dementia does not mean documents cannot be executed if he understands what is being done.  Find a Certified Elder Law Attorney (CELA) and see if you can be added as successor DPOA or primary as Mom is also elderly.  If she gets sick, has a stroke, etc - you have a significant problem.

Here is a good read to demonstrate the serious nature of your situation:

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/personal-history/my-mother-and-her-scammer

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Rescue mom

This was one of the hardest things for me to learn, maybe it will help you and others: most things I expected to cause a meltdown, or be a big deal, were Not. 

The trick is, don’t talk about them at length,  or ask. Just do it. Say matter-of-fact, no drama “Your cards are expired/lost/broken. I’m taking care of it.” And move on to next subject. My DH accepted things I was sure would be a crisis. But you simply can’t discuss it with them, they are not able to process.

Ginsamae

We've recently discovered that MIL (who is a widow living with us and only has SS as income - nothing else) has spent thousands of dollars on Amazon purchases she's sending as gifts to family members. Some family members are getting nothing while others are getting packages delivered almost daily. These are small amounts (in the range of $15 - $30 mostly) but she will purchase $150 of these small gifts constantly. 

This puts us in an awkward position - DH and I know but we haven't told anyone because some family members would have a complete meltdown. These meltdowns would be - "why are you spying on Mom?" or "Mom sent $1500 in gifts to so-and-so, but she completely forgot about my birthday!" So obviously we haven't said anything.  

 This also puts us in a bind financially because MIL is spending the vast majority of her SS benefits each month on gifts...which will more than likely prohibit her from qualifying for Medicaid. I've felt for a while now that we need to limit her access to the internet but DH isn't willing to do that, especially since MIL will recognize that we are still able to access it, but she can't (she has a desktop in our computer room, her laptop, and a tablet, not to mention her cell phone, all of which are internet capable). DH is also hesitant to deny her internet because in his words "she has all her legal rights to spend her money how she wants." My pleas are falling on deaf ears.

I'm very glad she will be transitioning to Sib #1's house in early July (the date of the move is tentatively set for July 6!) and then someone else can worry about it for a while!

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