Selling Mother's Car: 1) Fiblet or not? 2) Involve her in decision?

Jerome Likes Pie

Hello fellow caregivers!

My mother has stage "4.5" Alzheimer's.  Her short term memory is gone, but her long-term memory is still quite good.  Her judgment... so so.  

In short, we have taken her keys (doctor's orders), let her license expire, and will be selling her car very soon.  She has forgotten that she gave up her keys after her visit to the doctor and now believes that her car doesn't start.  I am a believer in being selective with the fiblets, especially in the early stages of Alzheimer's.  For example, if we tell Mom that yes, the car doesn't work, she will call the dealership for them to come out and check.  So, we have already called the dealership to alert them of this.  Then, she could call them again, or another auto service place, dealership, etc etc.  The fiblet gets out of control and we live with the chain reaction of consequences. 

Sometimes it is harder but necessary to just tell the truth.  In this case, telling her that she cannot drive anymore due to her license expiring (and her inability to pass all the tests) and we are selling her car. It is for her and others' safety.  We have arranged alternative transportation, etc.  This is just my opinion.  "The right motives elevate thoughts and give strength and freedom to speech and action."

Also, her sister would like me to involve Mom in the decision to sell her car.  There's nothing like someone coming off of the sidelines (more like the parking lot) trying to make decisions when they haven't been in the game.  Sorry for that rant.  My opinion is to sell the car to the best bidder or possibly a friend (these days demand for used cars is through the roof).  If we involve Mom in the decision, the process will just get all stuck in the mud.

Any thoughts on being selective with fiblets for a 4.5 ADLO, and for involving Mom in the car selling decision?  

Thank you so much.

Pie

loveskitties

Another big question is do you have a POA which will allow you to sell the car?  If not you will have to get her to sign over the title, then you will surely have to get her involved.

Jerome Likes Pie

Yes, I have a DPOA and have been managing all financial affairs.

M1

Jerome, like the ad says, I would just do it, no discussion. I have come to this more and more in things around here. Why discuss at all? You'd either have to lie or argue, and neither one accomplishes anything. Or as I said on another post this weekend, better to ask forgiveness than permission. I find if I present things as a fait accompli I get less pushback.

Jerome Likes Pie

Thanks, M1.  I agree completely, but remain open minded.

Emily 123

Hi Jerome,

I do agree that you can be selective with fiblets.  Both approaches have their place, and one can tailor what they do to the circumstances.

Absolutely don't get your mom involved in the car selling.  That's just one more thing that could frazzle her.   I'm sure she's lovely, but your aunt is probably thinking it's 'just' memory loss, not autonomy loss, right?  I think it's really difficult for people looking in from the outside to know how hard making choices is for a PWD, because they can hide it pretty well.

(As an aside, we used Carvana to sell my mom's car, and the process was pretty easy.)

Sounds like you're making good progress--Good luck!

Pat6177

My circumstances are a little bit different. I am selling my car tomorrow and we will share DH’s car. DH is also about 4.5. I told him that the prices are so good right now on used cars that I wanted to sell one of our cars. I couldn’t get him to agree to selling his car so decided to sell mine. But here’s the fiblet. I said I’d wait till next year when new cars are more available and will get a car next year. Tonight,I said maybe we’d be fine sharing a car and he quickly said that we needed to have two cars. I know I can drag this out for at least 2 years and I figure by then his dementia will have progressed and he won’t be focused on us having 2 cars. In the meantime, I don’t have to worry that he will be going for a drive when I’m not home since the car will be with me. And the car fob on his key ring now has a dead battery. Once he realizes this we’ll have to get it fixed but again, I’ve bought myself some time. 

I’m selling my car to Carmax. I got 3 quotes and theirs was significantly higher. They gave me the kbb private sale price.

Good luck!

BassetHoundAnn

The byword seems to be to do whatever gives your LO the most comfort. Whether it's a fiblet or the truth or an outright light. 

We gave my mom's car to a favorite nephew. Every time she asks about it we gush "You gave it to Doug! What a great thing you did! He needed a car so much! He loves it! He'll never forget you! What a great thing you did!" And she basks in his thoughts of gratitude, then promptly forgets about it. 

Whatever makes her feel good--and makes her safe. That's the path you need to take. 

harshedbuzz

Jerome Likes Pie wrote:

Hello fellow caregivers!

My mother has stage "4.5" Alzheimer's.  Her short term memory is gone, but her long-term memory is still quite good.  Her judgment... so so.  

Four point five? Generally a PWD is considered to be in the latest stage for which they have symptoms/behaviors. I get that this can seem confusing in a situation where a PWD has "good days" or has maintained a lot of cognitive reserve but the cardinal rule is care needs drive decisions. In almost every PWD I know, executive function and reasoning skills tank well before memory issues are obvious. 

In short, we have taken her keys (doctor's orders), let her license expire, and will be selling her car very soon.  She has forgotten that she gave up her keys after her visit to the doctor and now believes that her car doesn't start.  I am a believer in being selective with the fiblets, especially in the early stages of Alzheimer's.  For example, if we tell Mom that yes, the car doesn't work, she will call the dealership for them to come out and check.  So, we have already called the dealership to alert them of this.  Then, she could call them again, or another auto service place, dealership, etc etc.  The fiblet gets out of control and we live with the chain reaction of consequences. 

I feel like part of the issue here is that the car has not been disappeared. It remains a visual trigger of an unhappy consequence of the disease. This is a great time to sell a used car. 

I feel like one of the issues many folks have with fiblets is that it feels like lying which is exactly what your PWD tried to teach you not to do. Perhaps it's better to consider it a therapeutic strategy delivered in the interest of being kind. Keep the fib simple and tailored to your mom's circumstances/current events. You could sell it and tell her it's in the shop awaiting a part. With the visual trigger gone, she will stop asking. Out of sight is out of mind for most PWD.

Sometimes it is harder but necessary to just tell the truth.  In this case, telling her that she cannot drive anymore due to her license expiring (and her inability to pass all the tests) and we are selling her car. It is for her and others' safety.  We have arranged alternative transportation, etc.  This is just my opinion.  "The right motives elevate thoughts and give strength and freedom to speech and action." 

It's always best to truly examine your own motives; to check yourself that you are making the kindest choice for your PWD and not what's most comfortable for yourself. 

Dad's doctor told him he couldn't drive. We were able to repeat that truth without embellishing it with the obvious (to us) facts that he'd get lost, he couldn't work the phone to arrange a driving test, etc. This allowed us to be allies and validate his sense of loss. 

Also, her sister would like me to involve Mom in the decision to sell her car.  There's nothing like someone coming off of the sidelines (more like the parking lot) trying to make decisions when they haven't been in the game.  Sorry for that rant. 

I had an uncle like that. Ugh. The man did a 45 minute drive-by every 4-6 weeks and then called to p-ss in my ear about well reasoned decisions to which my mother and I had come after much deliberation. The man had opinions on everything. My husband finally stepped in an insinuated that uncle would be on the "do not fly list" at the MCF if he pushed me too far. Perhaps a veiled threat for cutting off contact would help.

 My opinion is to sell the car to the best bidder or possibly a friend (these days demand for used cars is through the roof).  If we involve Mom in the decision, the process will just get all stuck in the mud.

I would do it solo. 

Any thoughts on being selective with fiblets for a 4.5 ADLO, and for involving Mom in the car selling decision?  

For most people, I would go with a fiblet.

That said, my dad was involved in the sale of his car but it was an unusual situation which demonstrates how you can use a PWD's own personality to achieve your goals. My story is a darker spin on how BassettHoundAnn purposed her own mom's generosity.

Dad had a late model Taurus with all the bells and whistles that looked like it had been in a demolition derby. He'd driven it into a ditch, guardrails, the garage door frames and my mother once backed it into a fire hydrant which saved her from going into the Assawoman Bay. Dad saw himself as a champion negotiator and was shamed to have paid full MSRP on this load. He was clearly in the early midstages at this point. Mom was in the hospital and dad got fretful without her and self soothed; she (who managed the household funds) went ballistic and moved some money she'd inherited from an her BIL (who dad ridiculed every chance he got) to pay off the high interest loan he'd signed (they have excellent credit- the dealer screwed him over). Pre-diagnosis, this led to some not so good-natured digs from family members as in "sweet set of wheels Uncle Bill bought you" which led to him loathing the car. 

I shopped around and got a very generous offer and mentioned it to dad. He had it in his mind that I was colluding with the doctor to keep the car for myself; so he agreed to sell it on the spot. I drove him to the dealer immediately. The next day he was convinced I stole his car and sold it. It turns out involving him didn't matter- he still told everyone I stole his car and kept the proceeds. He remained fixated on this particular car; the first time I visited him after he went into the MCF he asked me to bring it to him incase he wanted to go some where. By that point it was easy enough to tell him it was in the employee parking lot with a full tank of gas which brought a rare smile to his face.

YMMV

HB

Thank you so much.

Pie

ADH77

Assuming we're mostly Americans on this board, cars are so tied to independence in our country and are essential transportation since there is often lack of other options. This makes getting rid of a LO's car when they can no longer drive so very challenging and emotional. For a LO with dementia who can no longer rationally understand the decision, they can see it not as a necessary safety decision but as the end of their freedom.

My advice in involving your mother would be based on the extent to which she approaches this issue rationally. Does she understand that she shouldn't be driving anymore and why? If yes, does she therefore understand that her continued car ownership serves no purpose and keeping an undriven car is unwise for a number of reasons? If the latter is also yes, then I think you could involve her in the decision of what to do with the car. But if the answer to both these questions is "no," which I suspect it would be if you see her as a 4-5 on the dementia stage scale, then I really see no point. She won't understand what you're doing or why. Even if you explain it, she won't remember. Even after it's done, be prepared for her to be continually upset by an empty garage or driveway (wherever her car was kept). 

My own situation: In the summer of 2017, when my mom was maybe a 4 or so on that scale, her doctor told me that my mom should no longer be driving. My mom's dementia had progressed enough, however, that she could not remember or understand this and therefore continued to drive. I reported her to the DMV as a potentially hazardous driver. They reviewed the case and requested that my mother take a driver's test or her license would be terminated in a couple months. My mother received this notice in the mail and read it to me over the phone. However, she subsequently could not remember that she received it or why unless I brought it up. She got her caregiver to take her to the DMV to get a driver's manual to study (I later learned there were many such trips, as I found dozens of drivers manuals in her house). Despite this, she still would not remember that she needed to take a test or why unless I mentioned it. I got the caregiver to take her to the DMV to do the test--just to give her the chance--and she failed. So her license was terminated.

But of course, she kept driving. Because she couldn't remember that she shouldn't. So then she not only an unsafe driver due to dementia but a driver without a valid license. To stop her driving until I could visit and get rid of the car, I had one her friends install a steering wheel lock (i.e. Club) in her car. This kept my mom from driving, but became a source of daily anger. About a month later, when I was able to visit, I arranged to donate the car. Again, a major source of anger. Seeing her empty garage, my mom started calling the police--everyday for about 2 months.

In making your decision, I would prioritize her safety and your sanity over the "truth." I get that you want to be truthful with your mom. I wanted that too. However, as dementia robs a person of their ability to think, the truth becomes impossible to process. To understand something as true requires a person to understand the context of what you're telling them and to remember what you're saying and why. When those things fall away, the truth becomes elusive and, when it is a hard truth, becomes a source of major anxiety. 

King Boo

  "The right motives elevate thoughts and give strength and freedom to speech and action."

There is nothing 'right' in the thought process, or lack thereof, for a person with dementia.  You cannot apply a reasoning or cognitive process when the hallmark of the disease is the destruction of executive functioning.  You are going to be working against yourself in dealing with Mom if you completely embrace this.

Thoughtful consideration of what you say, keeping in mind 2 things :1.  what will accomplish what you need done the easiest?  (and yes, if a fiblet is constructive, use it)    2.  The best answer is the one that brings the most comfort.

By the time we are on the boards for assistance here, the time is long past for old ways - including 'involving' our LO in a decision that represents their losses and is going to create upset for them.

We NEVER told our LO that the house and car had been sold.    "I'm there every week, taking care of things for you!   No worries!"    Worked very well.   As close to the truth as the situation could be.  Contented and satisfied his need for information.  It eventually faded into the background as things progressed.

How would it have possibly been kind to tell them "You can't live independently anymore, the car is going, this is the price, do you want it?"  "have an offer on the house, selling it!"

You would be upsetting a person with bad news, who no longer has the ability to process, learn or contain the information and upset.

There's a learning curve to this - we all make mistakes.  But asking the 2 questions will be the most effective (and kind, compassionate) route.

I am sorry your LO has dementia.  This stage 4-5 is by far the hardest, I found.  Sparks of their old self, mixed in with impossible to deal with symptoms.  It gets better.

 

I a

GothicGremlin

I'm getting ready to sell my sister's car this week.

She knows she can't drive, and she doesn't have a license anymore anyway, but she loves her car, and likes seeing it.  It does cause unhappiness for her because she's constantly reminded that she can't drive it. I'm sad for her that we're at that time, but here we are.

So for me, it's bald-faced lie time.  I'm going to tell her that the car is parked at our cousin's house for some amount of time. She'll be fine with that, and we'll both avoid the meltdown that she'd have if she knew I sold her car (yes, I have DPOA).

Jerome Likes Pie

Thank you so much for all of these thoughtful responses!  There is a lot of great advice here, and it is making me think through my approach with a different perspective.  I understand that some of this journey is trial and error and that some approaches work well for some and not for others, but this Forum is such an excellent way to hear from people that have experienced the journey.

Now, to create a fiblet on "Where did my car disappear to..."

Me:  "Well, Mom, the sky parted at midnight and a stealthy alien spacecraft teleported your car into another galaxy. They left a thank you note disguised as a Free Large Frosty coupon at Wendy's."

Mom: "But does Wendy's deliver?"

mommyandme (m&m)

Gotta laugh!

Jerome Likes Pie

All, 

Thanks again for all the encouraging thoughts.  I sold my mother's car several months ago without her knowing and deposited the proceeds into her account, which I manage under her Durable POA.  It took her 6 weeks to realize that her car wasn't there, and now she believes that the car is at anonymous auto shop awaiting a timing belt which is delayed due to the supply shortages (a fiblet which was more believable than the alien abduction).

She still refers occasionally to driving her car, but our approach of:

1) keeping her out of the decision and making a stealthy sale, and

2) creating a fiblet regarding why her car is gone

... has not created any frustration or anxiety from her.  We have also coordinated deliveries and her caregiver to take her to nearly all appointments, etc.  

We'll put this in the WIN column.

Pie

NizhoniGrrl

@bassetthoundAnn - I love your solution. Genius spin!

Very glad the OP had a good outcome with the stealthy approach.

My mom complained about not having her car for almost two years, until we moved her in with us in another state entirely. Sure she could technically drive when we sold the car, but she couldn't do any of the maintenance, deal with an emergency, and had no cell phone (too complicated for her to use), and would frequently get lost. After my Dad died, there was no one to supervise her driving, etc., while she lived in an independent living apartment. 

Now, either she's either forgotten about it or realizes there is no argument now. She doesn't know this town. And there are no reminders.