Can’t fix finances

Lizzielou

I am in the process of getting our finances in order and find my hands are tied by the institutions holding our money.  They require 2 doctors to sign affidavits that DH is unfit to manage his accounts but DH refuses to be medically assessed.  He currently has no doctor. I have made appointments but he refuses to go.

In the meantime he is withdrawing large sums of cash.  One banker called me yesterday concerned about this but said she has to respect his rights.  I can’t close the account because our social security automatically deposits in there and to change that we would have to go to the SS office, which he would never agree to.  Everything I need to do has a roadblock.  I consulted a lawyer but he said I should dissolve our trust and open a new one in my name.  He would never do that either.

I don’t know where to turn.  I will try to cancel credit cards because every solicitation he receives in the mail he gives huge donations (he thinks they are giving him money, not the other way around).  I’m afraid to leave him alone even briefly. 

Rick4407

Lizzie Lou, Others with expertise will no doubt provide good advice.  However, they will be limited because so many laws vary from state to state.  You need to fill out your profile and let people know what state you are in.

JDancer

Can you withdraw enough to keep the account balance small? That way he can't withdraw large amounts. Do you know what he's doing with the money?

Crushed

You must must must see an elder care lawyer yesterday
Or a divorce lawyer
You are on a bad trip  

 
  

Battlebuddy

When this happened to me I added a separate account number within our general account. Right now I have two savings accounts and two checking accounts. All show up on my online banking. I put most of the money in the accounts that I controlled. I then switched out his debit card to a new one.He never noticed a different card.  Some people have memorized there debit numbers . In that case move the money to the new account and you take that new card. I left my husbands account with 500 bucks. ( our issue was loosing debit cards) I could afford loosing 500 but the rest of the money was safe.

King Boo

Freeze his credit reports.  That will at least stop him from opening up credit cards, take loans, guard against identity theft.

Very easy to do online.

Quilting brings calm

Whether he agrees or  not…. Open yourself an account in your name only at the same bank.  Get online access to the joint account and this new account.  Do not give him access to your account. Transfer as much money as possible from the joint account to your account as soon as deposits are made.  The back cannot stop you because either of the people on a joint account can  legally claim all the money.  Then go to the SS office ( or create a SS account online). For your check only.  Arrange for it to go to the new account.   You can also transfer things like your health insurance there too.

abc123

Hi Lizzie, this is serious. Are you familiar with Butterfly Wings, a member here. She can give you first hand advice. I hope she see's this thread!

Battlebuddy

I’m not sure of your back story, as on how long he has been sick. You said he hasn’t been properly diagnosed. 

    I just wanted to add a word of encouragement to what I’ve already written. Often financial issues are the first issues that come up in which the caregiver has to begin to take the reins in the relationship. In my case this was true . My husband handled all the major business of our family( insurances, mortgage, loans, credit cards.) He was good at it and worked for a major financial firm so it made sense. 

   But the beginning of his illness was the beginning of these things deteriorating. Bills began to go unpaid, paid double , etc. For me, taking over the finances was a big deal. It was the beginning of me taking the financial reins away from him to protect assets. It was to protect him from himself. 

  It required me going behind his back, create accounts he didn’t know about and sometimes to come up with fiblets. It was a huge shift in me , but is something that has to be done. Unfortunately what your husband will agree to is no longer in play. The over arching question is how do I protect this guy who’s brain isn’t working, who isn’t thinking straight. Do whatever you have to do to protect those assets for his future care.

   And once you have the reins, is gets easier to make other decisions too. I hope this is helpful. You can do this.  

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ButterflyWings

Dear LizzieLou,

Your post sent me reeling down memory lane, a flashback like I’ve not had before. I truly feel your distress (it’s terrifying), frustrating, and for me it was a mix of fear and anger that the system protects the depletion of assets in situations like this, rather than what’s really needed. 

I understand. Lived it. You can do this. To “get finances in order” you must now prioritize securing funds and assets. Period. You are 100% correct about how urgent it is, and it’s clear you can’t waste further time with people or processes that aren’t helpful. Don’t wait another second. It almost is like a Great Race to beat him to the bank & move the funds only he’s depleting whereas you are protecting them. Don’t hesitate. 

You have received the best available advice here. No group of experts knows more on how to navigate dementia. Please follow their advice, as quickly as possible. It’s legal, and is what I followed to the letter when the experienced members gave the same guidance. So glad I did.  

You are in charge now and no need to negotiate with your financial security on the line. You are thinking AND DOING for two now. Just do it. You can loop back to the bankers etc later. It is not their funds nor future. Your marital funds are for his and your care and support. 

My advice is to please reread and follow Next Steps (today) in this order. Keep breathing and protect as much as you can, ASAP. I did things in this order to stop the madness but much was already depleted. Good for you for jumping on this now. 

Please urgently do this: 

 #1:Quilting‘’s advice [edit: +JDancer’s for keeping the original SSA acct low]

#2: Battle Buddy’s

#3: King Boo’s

You are not doing this to him, you’re doing it for him- and for you who also matter. Yes you can! I did and can share more details later. Starting today, move the money before he does. No need to discuss with him or others. He’s not asking permission, and he’s not himself anymore so don’t worry about defying him. 

Next will be diverting the mail and other spending triggers, [edit: changing online passwords as often as needed, getting SSA Rep Payee status], and definitely certified elder law guidance which matters less if the assets get depleted first. I had to stop the hemorrhaging first. 

Keep breathing! You’re right, you can, and should do this. Quickly.

Memphisdee

Also delete notification or email on your bank acct on his phone and email if he still can use phone.  Don’t let him go to ATM and  see receipts. Gotta get sneaky!  So sorry you have to do all this. It’s a new normal for me too.

Lizzielou

Thank you all for your excellent advice and suggestions, some I have already implemented.  I wanted Quilting Brings Calm to know that I changed the direct deposit of my social security check today.  And Battle Buddy I am dealing with the credit cards.  Some are cancelled, some are “lost”.  And since DH can no longer use a computer and rarely a telephone he’s probably not capable of opening new accounts.  I am feeling much better about going behind his back to protect assets. Guilt is deeply ingrained.

Quilting brings calm

Lizzie…. In addition to the advice I have above, let me add this comment and backstory. 

Will it be pleasant  to do what we’ve advised  you?  No, because you have to deal with the mind of a person who no longer understands logic… or who doesn’t understand he can’t handle money… or a person whose always been the head of the family and can’t be now.   Will there be shouting and arguments?  Probably.  However it has to be done.  I’d he gets physical, then call 911.  

In my parents case, my mom was the person that wrote the checks,  even though she didn’t make as much as him.  The one who hid money from my step dad so he wouldn’t spend it at the tavern.   The balance in the check register was seriously understated. Even after he quit drinking, he never understood how much stuff actually cost.  He thought he knew how much it should cost.  Never those two numbers shall meet. Nor can he read or write much, and is computer illiterate. They didn’t save much for retirement.   

They are now in their 80s.  She got a misdiagnosed UTI and was so demented we thought we’d need an actual nursing home, so we talked them into moving back to our home state.  They added me and  my sister to the joint account two weeks before the move so we could pay the  bills. The day we left, he decided not to come.  While we were waiting on the movers to get done, he left with a friend.  Unbeknownst to us, the friend took him to the bank and he was told how to move 99% of the money to an account in his name only.  I found out when I checked the online bank balance on the drive home. 

I was on that joint account.  I was not on the joint account they still had in our home state that held the proceeds of their house sale. So I had absolutely no money to pay for her needs.  She didn’t have enough money to buy lunch.  Nor did I have any money to pay their bills that exceeded the balance in that account.  Which was almost nil until the next automated deposits were received.

I live in fear that he will figure out how to change his pension and SS to that account or a new one.  Luckily my Mom recovered from her UTI, and the doctors refused to discuss dementia for several months afterwards.  So she moved the money that was up here and added me.  So I can pay for stuff for her for a couple years at least if he does something stupid. I believe he has dementia, but I will never get him diagnosed because he refuses to go to the appropriate doctors to do so.    

Two and a half years later, it’s still a constant battle to make him pay for things from ‘his’  account. I have managed to make him pay enough that the account is almost two thirds of the way gone.  But he calls me a thief and a liar in conversations ( arguments) with my mom almost daily. 

Lizzielou

Quilting…

 It sounds like a nightmare, creating so much stress for you.  Thank you for sharing. 

Quilting brings calm

It is.  I wanted you to understand what could happen if you don’t get your income out of the joint account.   Oh, my step dad showed up two days later after he said  he wasn’t coming. by the way.

Paris20

My husband taught accounting and finance at a major research university. He earned his PhD in accounting. Needless to say, he handled all our finances. When he started paying some bills twice and others not at all, I realized I had to take over. Necessity is the mother of invention. I handle everything now. DH still thinks he’s in charge. That’s fine, as long as he is NOT in charge of anything. He still thinks he drives, goes to the health club daily, and lives in the town where we haven’t lived for fifty years.I took all the paperwork and hid it from him. Out of sight, out of mind. He no longer can use a computer so I am safe with any online transactions. Fiblets and outright lies are my way of dealing with everything these days. It works.

shimalkharia

I do agree with Rick4407. Laws depend on the state you are in, I had a similar case to yours, and I convinced my grandma that this would be the game, and she agreed. Still, I don't know how far Altzheimer went in your case, so maybe approaching the proper financial advisor company will help you find a proper solution. For example, you can look for a certified financial planner company. Usually, these guys face multiple customer problems, and maybe they know how to solve this situation. Post an update here; it would be informative if you shared how you solved the issue.

ghphotog

Lot's of good advice about trying to set things up in your name.
Finances were the first sign for my DW something was wrong but the thought of dementia never crossed my mind at the time.
She would call me at work, crying, hysterical that we were nearly5000.00 overdrawn. I couldn't believe it. I taught her how to keep the books, sort of speak, using Quicken over 25 years ago. She kept track of everything, paid the bills and did a great job. After that happening twice I realized I had better start keeping up with these things but dementia still wasn't in my mind.
When I noticed she was becoming confused using Quicken I knew something was seriously up.

So I took over the finances again. Had DPOA and MPOA setup while she could still sign. Gave copies of the DPOA to our financial advisor who controls our money. We have both signatures on many documents. Recently spoke with a Medicaid attorney about how to protect at least some of our finances when and if the time comes to place her.

I hope you get everything squared away, I can't imagine how stressful that is.

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shimalkharia

I do agree with Rick 4407. Laws depend on the state you are in, I had a similar case to yours, and I convinced my grandma that this would be the game, and she agreed. Still, I don't know how far Alzheimer went in your case, so maybe approaching the proper financial advisor company will help you find a proper solution. For example, you can look for a certified financial planner company. Usually, these guys face multiple customer problems, and maybe they know how to solve this situation. Post an update here; it would be informative if you shared how you solved the issue.

Jella417

This is one of the issues that wakes me in a panic at night. Thankfully, we are still early and right away I was able to convince DH to cancel his debit card. He kept losing it and when he ran his business (I was able to convince him the business had to be closed with a partial fiblet since it was losing money, which I attributed to COVID and the economy instead of mismanagement). It also got stolen many times with his online purchases so it didn’t take much to get him to agree to cancel it and just use mine. 

We’ve seen an attorney and set up all that paperwork, POAs and trusts. He doesn’t have the bank account numbers or any passwords to email accounts but can walk to the bank and withdraw if he wanted and thought about it... His SS payment is in his name. Reading here I wonder if I should change that? That and remove his name from the accounts? He might agree to it… It will probably get ugly first. 

He planned on working until the day he died and did not prepare for retirement so I need every penny we have. I am much younger and still need to work full time while raising teenagers. So much to stress and worry about.  

Ed1937

Jella417 wrote:

His SS payment is in his name. Reading here I wonder if I should change that? 

I don't think that's possible. It could go into his account, which you could have your name on too. Then you would both have control of it.

Jella417

Someone replied that I could change the SS money so that I am an SSA Rep Payee. It is now deposited into an account with both of our names and he does not know how to get into that account since he’s always trusted me with the finances. He never cared to know. So maybe it’ll be fine as is.

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Jella417

Thank you. It is early. He hasn’t gotten lost yet and is too clear for fiblets even though he gets so confused at times. The bank accounts aren’t in the trust and the trustee of the rest of our assets is a trusted family member so nothing would go to him. It’s all so much to consider.

Ed1937

Jella417 wrote:

The bank accounts aren’t in the trust 

Did a CELA advise you not to put the bank accounts in the trust?

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