Power of Attorney(3)

JoseyWales

If you don't have this yet, DO IT NOW!

I can't tell you how often I've used DH's power of attorney in the last few years. I had to have it for reasons I never dreamed I'd need it. We had ours drawn up just after DH's diagnosis, and it is very detailed - pages and pages of details. I honestly thought it was a bit much when it was first written. Now I know it's worth every penny we paid!

Jo C.

Good that you have done that and thank you for sharing the information.   I too found it a great service to have those documents.  Initially, my LO did not want to do a, "Durable Power of Attorney," but was willing to do, "Estate Planning," just semantics, but it got the job done.

Like you, I found it helpful in so many different ways over time.  Got to the point that I used to carry copies of said document in a manila envelope in my car as "surprise" needs did pop up now and then.

J.

Ed1937

I hope people who are new to caregiving read this thread. It's important. I also carry a copy of our DPOA in the car. Just in case. You don't want to need it, and it not be readily available.

A. Marie

Josey, you've said it well. I got the legal paperwork for my DH, including the DPOA, completed **just** before he became unable to produce a signature. As you say, it makes a huge difference in being able to get necessary things done.

Stuck in the middle

Every adult should do this, and update it every five years or when things change.  We are all one banana peel away from a traumatic brain injury.

Crushed

I have it on my cellphone so I could send it to anyone electronically.  I also have specific language giving me access to all medical records and the right  to conduct conversations with all health care providers.  I put this language in because some snotty hospital type  told a relative that even a full Hippa  privacy power  gave them no right to talk with the doctors

Do remember that no one has to accept a POA unless you have a state law   VANGUARD was a complete PITA  and we all know about  the feds

They do have to accept Hippa rights

ButterflyWings

This. Most important thing I have done in the aftermath of this nightmare diagnosis. I learned about it here (the urgency, the difference between POA and DPOA, etc.) I would add..."and guard it with your life!". The advice to make several copies and even keep a copy on your phone is very important. (mini-sob story ahead...)

Current situation: My DH rummages and "files, purges, loses, defaces, tosses" things. So I hide anything important that I don't want confiscated. However, sometimes I hide things too well, including from myself. At the moment, I have been unable to locate the medical DPOA document and don't recall why or when it got separated from the financial one (which I have multiple copies of, in the folder I originally kept both of them in.) 

Not sure if he got a hold of it (I hope not!) and it is actually gone, or if I somehow mis-filed it. Who knows where. I feel at least it is here somewhere but that is very nerve-wracking. I have a different phone now and the images from my phone were not backing up to the cloud as intended. 

So... gone. I was told last week to just have him sign another one which seems questionable in my view. Although he has not been officially declared incompetent to sign, I have had pushback from banks and even a lawyer or two, who did not care that the financial DPOA is quite detailed, clear, and "water-tight". If they want to challenge it, they can and do. But ultimately things moved forward because I had the proper docs and would have had no recourse, without that. So...I really, really hope I can find the other DPOA original which was executed on the same date as his financial DPOA. If and when I do, will email it to myself, make multiple copies, put a set in my glove compartment, and text copies to a trusted friend to have backup for the phone image this/next time. You can't be too careful with this critical set of documents. Well do I know it.

BethL

Butterfly Wings, Perhaps the attorney who drew up your POAs has a copy?

DorisEmma

I chuckled at ButterflyWings comment about losing something because she has hid the item so well, even from herself.  Too often, that has happened to me.  Did DH move it, did I put it somewhere or better yet, knowing I put it "somewhere safe" only being unable to remember where that safe place is?  I have looked in the trash - a common place for items he feels he does not need - only to find that I moved it.  I have purchased new items I thought he lost - key to the freezer - only to find the key weeks later in one of my jacket pockets.  It makes me wonder if I am beginning to lose my memory.  But then I tell myself, that this is normal behavior when so much stress is put on one's life.  I have a POA that I have used.  Thank you for the suggestion of putting on in the car.  I have it on my electronic file to send to whomever needs it.  I have found that the local credit union will not honor it.  DH established his bank account so he can withdraw money, they say.  Fortunately,  I am on all accounts and can move money from one to another and have always had my own accounts.  I have double verification on the on-line account and he does not drive so will not go to the business.  The only concern is if he calls them.  However, I know from our financial advisor that DH does not leave comprehensible messages  when DH calls him so I hope the same will be with the bank.  I have access to all the accounts and check them occasionally.  I think I have done a lot to safeguard what we have.  However, on the personal side - it is so stressful.  There are times I wish I could get back to sewing, knitting, etc but find that time is consumed by my vigilant activities.

ButterflyWings

BethL - That would be awesome but they provided the documents for us to have signed and notarized. We kept the only notarized copy. I don't recall being asked to return a copy for their files. They might have and if so, it fell off my plate. Need to find it, hopefully this week. 

I have been told there is some sort of successor document or affidavit I can provide to address the specific health care DPOA request currently being made. Apparently in some states spouses are the default medical POA in absence of legal signed designation from a spouse who can no longer authorize (this was per VA) - but everyone has their own interpretation of things like this I have found. Even when they are reading the legal, signed and notarized DPOA document with both DH and myself present sometimes there is pushback. So, as I said...my DPOA advice in the future for newbies (and note to self) is..."guard it with your life". 

DorisEmma - hilarious, right? It really feels like the blind leading the blind around here some days. Most of the time DH and I can just laugh. But sometimes I do wonder if his condition is catching. I agree it is just overload and stress for us CGs though. Hang in there!

Crushed

This is the language I added to the DPOA 10 years ago to solve the HiPPa issues

attachment is full size  



 

Quilting brings calm

Butterfly - did you give his PCP a copy of the medical POA at sone point?  If so, ask them to photocopy their copy- or print you a copy if they scanned it into their records. 

I wish I could get my step-dad to give me a full POA.  It’s difficult to do certain things for him without it and it stresses me out.  I often have to put him on the phone or take him with me to give permission to get stuff done for him.  He’s too paranoid to give me the POA.   Even though I have told him that a court appointed guardian will happen if he becomes incapacitated.  It won’t be me.  I explained what that would mean but he doesn’t care.  Mom did give me one in and it’s been helpful on several occasions. I don’t think step-dad realizes she did that.  It will be stressful when something comes up that causes that to come to his attention.  He must think her stuff gets done by magic since I’m the one doing it and he isn’t.  He never asks why I don’t need her permission to do things. 

T. Slothrop

Josey and everyone who has agreed: will you tell me in what circumstances you have needed the POA handy? Thanks.

A. Marie

T. Slothrop: Everything you can think of and a few things you may not have thought of. Banking, financial advisor, utilities (essential recently in disconnecting our Verizon landline, since the account was in DH's name), etc., etc. It's as necessary as copies of a death certificate would be if the loved one was already dead.

Crushed

As a practical matter you need one to file a joint tax return without a lot of hassle

Joydean

Tslothrop,  I have had to use it to sign for DH, his pension every year sends a form for him to sign to prove he is still alive!

JoseyWales

T. Slothrop - Here's a short list...

*Medical matters - doctor's visits, ER visits, hospital visit so I could sign for him

*Listing a piece of property for sale

*Selling that property

*Taking care of DH's IRA accounts

*Banking - All kinds. Luckily this POA has worked for all the banks

*Opening up a Miller's Trust (Qualified Income Trust)

*Putting vehicles into just my name

*Getting the house into just my name

*Memory care required it

*Hospital he's now in required it

*Several copies needed for financial wrangling done by the elder care attorney for all kinds of things.

I'm sure there's more, just can't think of it off the top of my head.

DorisEmma

Has anyone had issues with a bank? After giving the POA to the local credit union, I was told that DH can withdraw money from any account he opened even with my POA.  Any thoughts?

Lynne D

DPOA is helpful in a lot of situations, but be warned that refinances and HELOCS are not keen on them. I had to have a refinance done and our home transferred out of our trust, and signed for by both of us (it is a miracle that the notary let this proceed) then have the property deeded back to the trust). I am also having to have my husband sign for a HELOC as the bank says it is more “complicated” to use the POA. Insanity.

jmlarue

Crushed - thank you for the added language. I can see that being helpful. Is this something that can be done as an addendum to the original DPOA so long as it it signed and notarized or do we need to create a brand new DPOA with these added clauses?

Crushed

DorisEmma wrote:

Has anyone had issues with a bank? After giving the POA to the local credit union, I was told that DH can withdraw money from any account he opened even with my POA.  Any thoughts?

That is correct.  What you can do is use the POA to close his accounts

Crushed

Lynne D wrote:

DPOA is helpful in a lot of situations, but be warned that refinances and HELOCS are not keen on them. I had to have a refinance done and our home transferred out of our trust, and signed for by both of us (it is a miracle that the notary let this proceed) then have the property deeded back to the trust). I am also having to have my husband sign for a HELOC as the bank says it is more “complicated” to use the POA. Insanity.

Change banks  I stopped dealing with VANGUARD years  because they were idiots about POA

Who is the trustee of the trust ?  This sounds like third graders running a bank

Crushed

DorisEmma wrote:

  I have a POA that I have used.  Thank you for the suggestion of putting on in the car.  I have it on my electronic file to send to whomever needs it.  I have found that the local credit union will not honor it.  DH established his bank account so he can withdraw money, they say.  Fortunately,  I am on all accounts and can move money from one to another and have always had my own accounts.  I have double verification on the on-line account and he does not drive so will not go to the business.  The only concern is if he calls them.  However, I know from our financial advisor that DH does not leave comprehensible messages  when DH calls him so I hope the same will be with the bank.  I have access to all the accounts and check them occasionally.  I think I have done a lot to safeguard what we have.  However, on the personal side - it is so stressful.  There are times I wish I could get back to sewing, knitting, etc but find that time is consumed by my vigilant activities.

THIS IS WHY I RESPECTFULLY ASK PEOPLE TO PUT THEIR STATE IN THEIR PROFILE  

 Powers of attorney are matters of state law.  Your power of attorney in no way limits his actions  so it   it has nothing to do with the  bank  "honoring it"

Your big risk is any thief can put a document in front of him 

What you can do is close his accounts and open new ones.

  


  

ElCy

I opened new savings accounts in my name only and left a small amount in our joint accounts. I placed limits on his debit card as well. I had no problem with bankers. I also placed notifications on bank charges as well. I am notified whenever a charge of 10.00 or more occurs.

Quilting brings calm

Doris….has your spouse been declared incompetent by the doctor yet?  If so, did you provide that letter to the bank?  A POA allows you to act on behalf of someone, but does not negate their right to act in their own behalf also.   Being declared incompetent is what prevents them from acting on their own behalf.  I don’t know if  the bank has to honor that letter or not in terms of shutting off the account holders access.  

DorisEmma

Quitting Brings Calm - yes I have that letter from his physician.  Even with that I was still told he could do what he wants with his account.  My name is on the account and I am able to transfer money from and to his account, pay all bills, and watch the account on-line.  I have my own accounts to which I can transfer money to and from his.   Since he does not drive, is not coherent on the phone, and does not use the internet to contact the bank (plus I put a second level of security on it), I feel rather safe right now.  I have considered closing the account which I think he would do, but it would require some work - changing where his retirement goes, etc.  I was just frustrated that the bank would not accept the POA with the physician's letter.  I was saddened to learn that several of you have had issues with businesses accepting POAs.  Someone's comment about different states gives me more reason for concern for the future.  We are in one state but may start spending more time in another with our daughter.   For now I will definitely keep our residency and accounts in our home state.