Child of Patient vs. Spouse of Patient

Akiva

I'm very glad this forum is here.   Here is my situation:  My mother is 78, in the middle stages of dementia.   It is difficult for her to complete a sentence, and her short term memory is basically non-existent.  Her husband (my step father) suffered a major stroke a few years ago and lost the use of his right side.  They live together in a fancy house way up in the hills.  She is very depressed, lonely, and has no support except for him, my sister, and me.  I live about 30 minutes away. We have been trying to get him to move into assisted living with her, and he won't budge.  She has admitted to my sister and me that she wants to move, but she is scared to tell him this.   His treatment of her borders on neglect and abuse.  He does not take any initiative in getting her support, although we have provided him with many resources.  

I want to know what our rights are as her children, as far as getting her out of that living situation.  She is getting worse by the day, since she is doing nothing to help herself, and he is doing nothing for her.  By the way, I did get a durable power of attorney signed a couple of weeks ago.  

terei

I think you should see a certified elder law attorney(CELA) They will be able to tell you what you will legally be able to do.   If she has financial resources of her own, you should be able to move her to a facility where she has proper care.  Would she agree to move without him?

A lawyer will be able to direct you.   Make sure it is a CELA.  A regular family law attorney probably will not have the experience you need for this problem (IMO)

harshedbuzz

Akiva wrote:

I'm very glad this forum is here. 

I am glad you found us but sorry for the reason you have to be here.

 Here is my situation:  My mother is 78, in the middle stages of dementia.   It is difficult for her to complete a sentence, and her short term memory is basically non-existent.  Her husband (my step father) suffered a major stroke a few years ago and lost the use of his right side.  They live together in a fancy house way up in the hills.  She is very depressed, lonely, and has no support except for him, my sister, and me.  I live about 30 minutes away. We have been trying to get him to move into assisted living with her, and he won't budge.

I'm sorry, but this is his right. TBH, a hospitality-model AL isn't an appropriate fit for your mom. He'd give up his lovely home in exchange for maybe hot meals and a weekly housekeeping service. And he'd still have to be caregiver to your mom in a much smaller physical space. I wouldn't accept that as an option either. If this is a CCRC, your mom might not be offered residency if they do cognitive screening to avoid having PWD move in. 

Is he mobile or able to use a wheelchair? Could he have suffered his own cognitive shift as a result or the stroke or just in general? Sometimes personality changes are what family might first notice.

How do they bring in food? Complete medical appointments? Has your mom seen a doctor about her mood? Medication might be helpful around depression.

Is this a long-term marriage or something that happened later in life? Does he have children? 

She has admitted to my sister and me that she wants to move, but she is scared to tell him this. 

If her memory is as poor as you suggest, her reporting of a situation could be false. Or it could be he's looking to preserve assets for his own lifestyle in Stage 8. 

His treatment of her borders on neglect and abuse.  He does not take any initiative in getting her support, although we have provided him with many resources.  

It either is abusive or it isn't. Neglect can be hazier to prove. Is she fed, clean, safe? Is he leaving her alone against medical advice? Is he irritated by her poor memory and inability to offer him assistance in running the household or as a full partner in the marriage?

What support do you envision improving her quality of life? Could you and your sister be enabling him to not make choices to get her care by picking up his slack? What would happen if you backed off and waited for the other shoe to drop?

I want to know what our rights are as her children, as far as getting her out of that living situation. 

A CELA should be able to advise you. If the marriage isn't working, divorce might be an option. A CELA could also vet your POA to see what rights you have as agent now to move her into your home or a memory care facility. 

 She is getting worse by the day, since she is doing nothing to help herself, and he is doing nothing for her. 

This is the nature of dementia. It gets worse. Even if the PWD is in a supportive atmosphere with best practices, they get worse. 

By the way, I did get a durable power of attorney signed a couple of weeks ago.  

Did you bring this up with the CELA then?

I don't know if you can prevail against a spouse unless abuse or serious neglect is documented. But I would say you do need a plan B in the event the stepdad dies or becomes incapacitated.

HB

JJ401

Does he have children who could enter the discussion with him?

Akiva

Thank you for all the responses.  They have been married about 12 years. He has three grown sons.  My sister and I have talked with them, they also believe it's time to move out.  But they are leaving the decision to him as well.  

Another point, my step-father has asked my sister and me 3 or 4 times in the past 6 months to come and get her, and that he wanted her to move out.  According to him, she has gotten angry and thrown things at him.  But he always changes his mind the next day and says things are fine.  She is on meds for dementia and depression.  The doctor just upped her depression meds.  

I realize that dementia gets worse, I realize that he won't want to move out of his fancy house, but the frustration lies in the fact that he is not doing anything to help her quality of life.  She just sits around, watches television, cooks for him, etc.   

I have reached out to a CELA, appreciate the guidance. 

dayn2nite2

Short but sweet - right now, you have no rights at all.

If you file for guardianship he can fight you and as long as he appears (note I did not say "is" but only "appears") to have normal cognition, you will lose and waste your money.

He could also choose to give up the decision making to you, but that would only be with a legal document and if he changes his mind you might be back to fighting him again.

You can call Adult Protective Services, but though you can be anonymous he will know it's you and could possibly cut off her contact with you (and he has the right to do that).  I wouldn't choose this option unless there is clear abuse going on because even mild neglect is probably going to produce an unfounded case.

Also, she cannot "help herself."  That's dementia.  If she's fed, relatively clean and isn't starting fires or wandering away and being brought back by the police, his lack of care will not be an issue other than causing public services like fire and police to be called repeatedly.

From the description, it doesn't sound like he is rising to the level of neglect or abuse, so calling APS would be kind of dicey and I wouldn't choose that option because you will never get them both to move.

Akiva

Much appreciated.  Not the best of news, but I guess I have my answer.

Olly_Bake

Dayn2nite2 you have gotten lots of great advice. If you file for guardianship, make sure you have lots of patience and lots of money. I went for guardianship and it was me against six other siblings. The stall tactics they used. Oh I didn’t get my notice in time, oh I didn’t know what a guardianship is, and oh we need time to come up with money for an attorney. Last time the judge didn’t take the excuse and proceeded with the hearing.

Yup, if you use adult protection, he will know it was one of the, in his mind, meddlesome children (the squeaky wheel). And as Dayn2nite2 says if mom appears relatively taken care of no malnutrition, clean clothes – no fancy required, some food in the home – no stocked cabinets and freezer required just few things here or there, and the home appears to not be a fire hazard (can be cluttered) they will probably do nothing and the blaze for your family will grow higher.

I posted on another post here about adult protection (for me it was against a sibling and not the spouse). If the person you are trying to protect says anything positive about the person you are accusing of doing wrong – it will probably go no further. If they say the other person has no other place to go for example – it will probably go no further. If they say they freely give them money to help with this or that – well.

Just sharing my experience with APS when mom was still with us.

Iris L.

Akiva wrote:

  She just sits around, watches television, cooks for him, etc.   

Cooking can be dangerous for a PWD, look for burned food, burned pots, the flame being left unattended.

One of the members moved her mother against the stepdad's wishes, he later realized he couldn't manage by himself and moved in with mom.  You might be able to finesse the situation without invoking the law.  Or bring her to your home for a "visit" and just keep extending the time with excuses.  The pointbis, don't be confrontational, appear sympathetic to their plight.  But don't say they are too old or too helpless--they will resist.

Iris L.