Just wondering if others agree with my thoughts

Ed1937

This is from another thread:

Cecil J wrote:

it seems only men post these type of questions. I agree and I don't know why that's true?

I'll take a shot at that. In our society, it seems to be taken for granted that men are the ones who are always after the "other woman". That seems to be OK because so many men do that. But if a woman did that, she would be looked upon as "trashy" by men and by other women. It's the way we were all brought up (by society). I think it all stems from when women were supposed to obey their husband. Women's needs are somehow looked upon as less important by society.

Let's face it. We all need others in our lives. We all want to be loved. Women need "closeness" as much as men do. You can define "closeness" any way you want - it's still the same for both sexes. But once again, men can get away with it, while women can't. So a man might tell other men about the affair and get a "high five", while a woman will be as discrete as possible for fear of being labeled "trash". Now I'll get off my women's rights soapbox.

jfkoc

I hate to say it but I agree pretty much....yet another double standard.

I will go one step further, sticking out my neck, I think it is possible that men are less independant. c 

I think it may be because women are more socially connected.

Please, no one yell at me.......just think about it.

CaringMate

Thank you Ed for writing this post.  I think you are one in a million and in my mind
a rare man in today's world.  Given my experience as a 24/7 caregiver for over 10 years,
I am appalled by the suggestion that because your spouse is no longer the same person that you married, you are given a "green light" to reach out and find another.  I agree with you that this comes primarily from men and it makes me very sad.  If I remember correctly, the vows say "for better or worse" and as we all know, this is definitely worse!  However, in my mind, that does not give us justification to cheat and that's what I see this behavior as...cheating on the person afflicted with dementia.  Also, in my heart and mind, it complicates an already untenable situation by bringing another person into the mix.  I see this as purely selfish behavior and not something to be condoned.  For the man yesterday who said consider if the shoe was on the other foot, how would you feel if this happened to you?  Thank you for using good common sense and reminding people that we are all vulnerable to this horrific disease and it was your promise to remain faithful not find reasons to justify bad behavior.  Just my opinion but I applaud the faithful men on this site and it gives me hope that responsible and quality people still exist even under the worst of circumstances.  I am coming up on four years since the passing of my beloved Steven and I still can't bring myself to the concept of bringing another man into my life.  I have been changed forever by this disease and I would be less than fair to another to believe they deserve or could even understand what this does to your life.

harshedbuzz

Mayor Ed-

IRL, I feel like this is more of a generational thing. Where I see women of my mom's generation more likely to look the other way in the face of obvious infidelity, I don't see many of my younger boomer friends willing to tolerate it. And among my niece and son's generation who seem to marry in their late 20/early 30s, there seems to be no "high fiving" for any spouse who cheats-- male or female.

That said, I wonder if pieces of the puzzle that drives more husbands of a spouse with dementia to seek companionship than wives in similar circumstances is something else.

Since more women (1 in 6 who live past 55) than men (1 in 10 who do the same) are diagnosed with dementia, it makes perfect sense that men seeking a companion while their spouse lives as there are just more of them. 

It also strikes me that women often tend to have more intimate relationships with other women in which they are able to truly be themselves. While I consider my husband a soulmate, I have women in my life with whom I can discuss anything. My husband has me. He and his friends and brothers seem to interact in more superficial ways even when something difficult is happening in their lives. I'm not saying their relationships aren't as important or connected, just that they don't seem to offer a place to be vulnerable. 

HB

Joe C.

My two cents: 

I went to my very first Caregiver Support Group 5 or 6 years ago when DW was in early stages. I arrived early and introduced my self to 3 women already there. Shortly after my arrival another women arrived who was a existing member, the group asked “how is you husband” & and the second question was “how’s things going with the new boyfriend”. I was a little surprised with the casualness of this conversation but having remained active in support groups I have heard and participated in many conversations about the desire/need for a relationship by both men & women. I believe men & women both struggle with the loss of companionship & romance equally and probably desire/seek the companionship of others in equal measures as well. I think Ed has a valid point on social norms so maybe men are just a little more comfortable with putting this topic in black & white.

ImMaggieMae

CaringMate wrote:

Thank you Ed for writing this post.  I think you are one in a million and in my mind
a rare man in today's world.  Given my experience as a 24/7 caregiver for over 10 years,
I am appalled by the suggestion that because your spouse is no longer the same person that you married, you are given a "green light" to reach out and find another.  I agree with you that this comes primarily from men and it makes me very sad.  If I remember correctly, the vows say "for better or worse" and as we all know, this is definitely worse!  However, in my mind, that does not give us justification to cheat and that's what I see this behavior as...cheating on the person afflicted with dementia.  Also, in my heart and mind, it complicates an already untenable situation by bringing another person into the mix.  I see this as purely selfish behavior and not something to be condoned.  For the man yesterday who said consider if the shoe was on the other foot, how would you feel if this happened to you?  Thank you for using good common sense and reminding people that we are all vulnerable to this horrific disease and it was your promise to remain faithful not find reasons to justify bad behavior.  Just my opinion but I applaud the faithful men on this site and it gives me hope that responsible and quality people still exist even under the worst of circumstances.  I am coming up on four years since the passing of my beloved Steven and I still can't bring myself to the concept of bringing another man into my life.  I have been changed forever by this disease and I would be less than fair to another to believe they deserve or could even understand what this does to your life.

CaringMate, you said it better than I could. Completely agree.

Crushed

CaringMate wrote:

I am appalled by the suggestion that because your spouse is no longer the same person that you married, you are given a "green light" to reach out and find another.  I agree with you that this comes primarily from men and it makes me very sad.  If I remember correctly, the vows say "for better or worse" and as we all know, this is definitely worse!  However, in my mind, that does not give us justification to cheat and that's what I see this behavior as...cheating on the person afflicted with dementia.

My hope is that people understand that this is a purely "personal view " just like enjoying religion, dogs, gardening or anal sex.  NONE of us have the right to use demeaning language about or towards those who do not share such beliefs.   This is a support forum. When you use language like "us"  rather than ME You are imposing your beliefs on others.   Tell us what your feel about yourself and your behavior FINE no problem .  But none of us have the right to throw stones at others.

   

Joydean

Crushed, you said “none of us have the right to throw stones at others “. And yet you yourself have no problem judging others. I am speaking of your comment months ago to the one post that I stated I was venting. You had no problem judging my dh. I almost decided to not come back on this forum, but I told myself that maybe you were having a hard time and needed to be ugly. So I have forgiven you but I will never forget. Judging is throwing stones!

Iris L.

I'm glad you decided to stay, Joydean.  

I believe women are less likely to think of new relationships because  they are more likely to be wary of becoming a caregiver again to new man.  Whereas men are more likely to expect to be taken care of to the end of their lives, no matter what happens.

An older relative once told me when I was in my 50s, that at my age, a man was looking for a nurse or a purse.  I was not willing to be either.

Iris

Crushed

Joydean wrote:

Crushed, you said “none of us have the right to throw stones at others “. And yet you yourself have no problem judging others. I am speaking of your comment months ago to the one post that I stated I was venting. You had no problem judging my dh. I almost decided to not come back on this forum, but I told myself that maybe you were having a hard time and needed to be ugly. So I have forgiven you but I will never forget. Judging is throwing stones!

I  did a search of all threads that have yours and my name and could find nothing that resembled  this comment

However I will be clear my comment is directed towards judging other members of this support group not third parties.  

NONE of us have the right to use demeaning language about or towards those who do not share such beliefs.   This is a support forum. When you use language like "us"  rather than ME You are imposing your beliefs on others.   Tell us what your feel about yourself and your behavior FINE no problem .  But none of us have the right to throw stones at others.
  

We support one another  sometimes by pointing out that third parties are being awful  

 

Ed1937

Joydean wrote:

Crushed, you said “none of us have the right to throw stones at others “. And yet you yourself have no problem judging others. I am speaking of your comment months ago to the one post that I stated I was venting. You had no problem judging my dh. I almost decided to not come back on this forum, but I told myself that maybe you were having a hard time and needed to be ugly. So I have forgiven you but I will never forget. Judging is throwing stones!

Joy, I completely understand. The same thing happened to me when I first joined. Some people might be scholars, and look for papers to grade, but have no idea how to come across as a caring individual.                                                                                                                      For any new members reading this, this is not the norm on this forum. People here are kind and compassionate, and willing to help when possible. Please don't let this turn you away from the forum.

Joydean

Crushed you didn’t find that thread because I deleted it on the same day. I deleted because one of the sweet ladies on here tried saying that she thought maybe you were speaking of her dh. I did not want anyone else trying to stand up. I have a great deal of respect for everyone on this forum because we are all going through hell. I also did not want anyone else thinking less of you. I truly wish you happiness.

To any new members if you are reading this, my post is not intended to be offensive, but just like in most families sometimes you call out your brother or sister. No one is perfect we are all just human beings going down the same horrible road! 

David J

This thread took a wrong turn somewhere, so I am going back to Ed’s original premise, that men can get away with having a relationship outside his marriage, women cannot. 

The following is my opinion, not presented as fact or as the only possible opinion:

We have progressed little from the time that an adulteress was stoned to death by the village while the adulterer got away scott free. There is still a social stigma against the woman and not so much for the man. This unfortunate and unfair. As Ed said, we all need closeness, however you define it. I had closeness with my wife, right up until the end.  She didn’t know who I was, but she enjoyed holding my hand and walking with me.

My wife and I were married almost 45 years when she passed. For the last 16 years of our time together, I was her caregiver. At no time in our marriage did I have an affair, especially during the caregiving years. I was too busy trying to work, care for my wife, and trying to make the best life for us, knowing that our time together was ending. I had no interest in adding complexities to my already hectic life. 

Did I have desires? Yes. Did I act on them? No. I enjoyed social contact and conversation with others, and count several women (and their husbands) as friends. I count these women as part of my support group because they stuck with us through the entire process. As many of you know, some people drop out of our lives when the dementia starts to get bad. 

Now that she is gone, I still have no desire for a one on one relationship with anyone. I can’t imagine opening up my life to anyone but my wife. Maybe that will change over time, but I also worry about having to be a caregiver again or even worse, putting someone I love through it. 

So, my opinion in a nutshell: Affairs are wrong, and both male and female are at fault. In our positions as caretakers, it’s also wrong to take our focus off our spouses. I personally can’t imagine having another relationship with a different woman. 

None of the above should be taken as admonishment if you don’t share my opinion. You are welcome to express what you feel, without fear of being called out. This is supposed to be a safe place. 

David J

Ed1937

David, you said it very well. I agree with everything you said.

CaringMate

Thank you David.  Beautifully said and it restores my faith knowing there are men like you and Ed that stand out and stand up!

ImMaggieMae

Thank you for posting that, David. Beautifully written. People like you and Ed are my heroes.

Jo C.

Ed, taking off my PV hat, I agree with you that parsing other Members words is not caring; it is most often, the opposite.  This site is not meant to be a scholarly or un-scholarly exercise to judge and criticize words in order to try and show who is most technically "correct;" parsing in such a manner is criticising in itself.   When parsing persists and is done time and time again, one may want to look inward as to why this is such an important ongoing dynamic. It may be the parser is in a difficult emotional state themself and needs support, but I do not know; just trying to understand.

Thank you for your caring and for your support of so many of us; you add much to this site and many of us have benefitted from it; thank you also for informing the new and potential new Members of the supportive environment this wonderful place is.

J.

Quilting brings calm

The quote Ed referenced in posting this thread was a comment in response to a comment I made.  My comment was that posts about wanting to date while the PWD was still alive seem to all come from men,  the adulterer vs adulteress thoughts you’ve mentioned  all ring true … but I would like to mention an different side of it. 

Women have traditionally been the homemakers and caregivers while men  have been the  Breadwinners and responsible  for home/vehicle maintenance.  This of course has changed in the last 55+ years.  By that I mean that women have increasingly ‘brought home the bacon and fried it up in a pan’.  Remember those commercials?  Yet women have still traditionally been expected to keep up with their home making responsibilities while working. 

I think that men feel emotionally bereft when it’s their wives that have this disease.  They are now responsible for caregiving, being the housekeeper, cook, dishwasher etc.   They’ve lost their helpmeet and cheerleaders.   They want that back - and the sex sometimes  too.  Women caregivers with a male with this disease are doing more caregiving, but it’s still a chore and emotions  they are familiar with and know how to do.  We can if needed hire someone to do the chores that the  men did in the past.  We really don’t want to take physical or emotional care of an additional person - which is what we’d be doing with someone we’d be dating. Also many women 60+ just aren’t all that interested in a new sexual partner. 

Now are there exceptions to whose been the actual homemaker, etc?  Yes, Crushed has always said he did a lot of the cooking, cleaning etc.  M1has mentioned his wife built houses.  Just as there are exceptions as to who is interested in sex at this point. 

I’m not sure I explained it clearly - maybe this is more blunt:  many older women aren’t interested in dating period, while many older men are.  Everything that David J mentioned about not dating after the death of his wife are my thoughts about dating when my spouse dies note- spouse does not have dementia).   

storycrafter

Thank you for your interesting post, sharing your observations.

Your note reminds me how we live in a culture steeped in patriarchal conditioning from day one, which we all unconsciously receive. Human beings naturally develop survival patterns as children and carry them into adult life, automatically following the ingrained behaviors whether they still serve them well or not. What is culturally valued and taught to the different genders is complex and a lot of people never pay any attention to the effects on their lives and those of others.

Your awareness and acknowledgment is refreshing and hopeful to hear.