Notes from physicians vs. POAs

LittleRoseBug15

Hi everyone,

Question: Can notes from medical professionals specifying a LO's diagnosis and/or capacity count for anything in lieu of a POA? Does it vary in different situations? Can certain processes be helped by having documents like these?

My mother (who is currently diagnosed with MCI) had a large outburst the last time I brought up legal documents and has started to distrust me with money but her spending is a massive issue. I'm just trying to see what other options are/that could be of help.

As always, thanks in advance.

LRB

harshedbuzz

LRB-

A physician statement does not replace a POA. One is a medical opinion and the other is a legal document.

In order to act on behalf of your mother in terms of decision making around finances, you will either need a DPOA or guardianship/conservatorship. A medical opinion is typically sought as part of the court proceedings around guardianship and also for certain springing POAs which require at least one physician to sign off on incompetency. 

Generally speaking, a POA is an easier to obtain document. It's less time consuming and considerably less expensive if you can finesse it. Many families create a less threatening way to make it happen if their LO is in a place where they are still competent to sign (often a lower bar than you might expect). And a good CELA will be adept at presenting this concept in a positive manner and matter-of-fact manner. Many families present it as "we're doing estate planning/retirement planning and thought maybe you might want to as well". Others cobble it onto an appointment to do taxes or manage investments. 

My dad was super reluctant to cede control of anything. When he wrote his will his lawyer pushed for POAs and he flatly refused as he believed I would "take his house and put him in a home'. Every year his CPA would try to get him to do estate planning, POA and a trust to shelter assets and every year he'd refuse. I got the POA signed by getting his brother to tell him the document protected him from the government taking his house because he was in rehab. Before dad was officially diagnosed and we put safeguards in place, he lost $350K day-trading and was hemorrhaging money. At one point I was able to find 6 internet security suites on auto-renew (At $300 each) for computers he'd long since forgotten how to use. TL;DR you want to lock down the money asap. Dementia care is expensive and having money affords more options. 

A CELA can be really useful not just for their ability to make this happen, but also to plan for Medicaid should your mom not have unlimited funds for her care. The advice is critical. The other piece is that the agencies and institutions with whom you will need to work to take over the handling of mom's assets will require you to submit your POA to their legal departments for vetting. You want a professionally drafted document. 

If you cannot get your LO to sign a POA, then you are left with obtaining guardianship through the courts. This is a more costly process in terms of time and money. Although, if you prevail, costs would be paid by your mom. 

I know a few folks who had to obtain guardianship. One friend and his brother lived the nightmare of a dad with just enough cognitive reserve to hire his own lawyer to fight the process. He did not succeed, but the fiasco cost well over $10K. Dad lived in a gatehouse on the older son's property and continued to have dinner nightly and attend his grands' events and activities. 

HB

jfkoc

Everyone in my family has a DPOA in place. It is a very important document as is a Health Directive.

Ask your to lunch then just tell her you are stopping first to get your DPOA. Let the attorney know ahead that your aim is to get hers at the same time.

LittleRoseBug15

Thank you both for the information and ideas. Thank you, HB, for sharing your experiences. Hearing that your dad could eventually be convinced after being so resistant gives me a little hope. And yes, an outing is usually my saving grace in doing things that may be unpleasant for her!

I really do not want to go the guardianship route. My mother is incredibly proud and independent and still very discerning in some areas. It's a challenge because we're not at the "just do it, they can't tell the difference"  stage (I would love to be able to just change settings on her accounts but she's still savvy enough to notice that and rage about it and change things back somehow), but we're definitely at the "they shouldn't have control of any finances stage". Things only work with her if she thinks they're her idea. Nothing can hint of someone doing something to her or for her. 

I did find a good CELA lawyer on my first try. They have all our information, I just need to make a new appointment. I'll see if I can either convince her friends who she trusts to really lay it on with the need for POAs/advance directives or go with the "I'm doing mine and need you there. If you want you can get yours done, too" approach.

Thanks again.

CanyonGal

You could say the DPOA is for her safety, if ever she has to have surgery, or becomes very ill and needs you to help with bills. She is still in control of her money, you are back-up. You can visit the bank (prep them in advance) to ask for ways to safeguard her money. (Place the bulk of money in a savings account and leave just enough in checking to cover bills.)

My mother was cashing CD of 5k-10k into her checking account so she could feel wealthy. A visit to the bank let her know that was not safe, because if she ever lost her checkbook a person could empty all her funds. We moved all the money into savings, but it took someone from the bank to tell her.

Her lawyer was on the same page. He said you can change these legal documents (DPOA, Health surrogate) at any time but it is good to have them in place in case you need assistance. So, she is in control, I was her "assistant" and I would make suggestions to gradually get everything into savings. I would often ask if she wanted me to do something for her to keep her bank account solvent. Eventually I did everything, ordering and paying bills and she just was left with enough to buy snacks and pay the hair dresser, or occasionally go out to lunch.

toolbeltexpert

Well I will add my account as briefly as possible. I told my dw that we needed this document in case something happened to me. It worked like a charm and it wasn't a lie, I have always been worried what if something happens to me. Keep us informed on how it goes.

Stewart

Anonymousjpl123

Littlerosebud I’m in a similar situation, so reading your post and this thread helped a lot. It’s hard to cope with someone with Alzheimer’s/dementia who already has a spending issue. POA is the last hurdle for me to cross, as my mom is in AL/memory care and I’m already basically managing the finances. I’m waiting to create the right time and circumstance (which has to be soon). Ideas in this thread are super helpful.

LittleRoseBug15

I'm so glad to hear all of your experiences, it really is helpful. 

I can only hope that this isn't one of those topics that Mom just will not forget how she feels about it (you know sometimes a LO can flip flop on certain subjects and then just be adamant about others). And yes, Anonymousjpl123, dealing with someone who's grown accustomed to a lifestyle of spending what they want and then trying to come in and change is is incredibly difficult.

I will try describing the appointment as me-forward and saying that she should do it too. In our last discussion, she got angry because she said that as an only child I had no reason to need any documentation because things would automatically go to me. I do think that she is just now suspicious of me and her money, so I don't know, it may still be a struggle.

CanyonGal, I would love to get her bankers on my side. I moved down to live with Mom two months ago and thought that my presence/control of her schedule might naturally curb some of her spending. Nope! Somehow, she's still managed to take 3k out from ATMs in the last two months! I guess anytime I've dropped her off somewhere, if that location had an ATM, she's gone to it. It was disheartening and made me feel hopeless and ashamed, especially after the work our family friends had done trying to stabilize her finances over the last six months. 

I don't know what to do if I can't get control of her access to that money.