Using or borrowing person with incapacitated persons car

Merla

I am my parents with dementia poa and they are officially incapacitated and in memory care.

I am cleaning out condo. We're donating most stuff, shipping other stuff.

she has a nearly new nice car. She has said "take my car. It's new and very safe."

can I legally take her car for my personal use in a different state than where she lives and just pay to have it registered and insurance In my name and keep the title in her name?

selling her car to put the money in her estate is not of any consequence to her financial well being. However I do want to do things by the book.

ARIL

As POA, you have a responsibility to maintain her assets for her own benefit (whether or not she needs them at present). You can legally sell the car and deposit the funds in your mother’s account. If you document it properly, you could buy the car from her directly, paying the same rate you could get elsewhere (bluebook value or value a reputable dealer would give you).

Although there are nuances here about gifts and the person’s regular practices, I would definitely not just take the car. Even with her saying you can have it, you could run into big problems owing to her incapacity (i.e., in certain contexts this could be theft). It’s a conflict of interest at least.

Good luck.

Merla

so I called a ln estate lawyer I've worked with in the past ( not an elder care lawyer) and they didn't see any issue with it and said it was a dmv issue.

My other thought is to get a carmax quote and pay her estate a little above this amount.

it just seems like a huge waste bc the car is practically new, her intention was to give it to me or my sibling since she can't use it and it's a good car.

my issue is where is the line drawn with assets? Like we are going through her condo, could we give ourselves furniture we would have otherwise donated? We're not bc we don't have a need and dont live nearby.

Or she told me, take whatever clothes you like. We're the same size. So I assume I can indeed take clothes she doesn't need or want as opposed to donating all of them.

Granted a car is of much higher value and involves government and private entities lik dmv and insurance company.

Going through a condo of stuff ia so sad on many levels. The waste part of it bother me and would bother my parent as she wanted her stuff to go to people and use but her place is thousands of miles away from everyone.

Victoriaredux

Talk to your parent's elder law attorney , if the advise is on your parent's behalf their assets will pay for the consultation.

I guess that estate attorney never heard of elder abuse. You wouldn't be able to insure a car owned by someone else- especially someone in another state who can't conduct their own affairs.

If something goes "wiggy" in the future — another heir challenges this or that - having your parents elder law attorney give you a template for future disposition of items makes it clear.

Ask the lawyer if you think something would be meaningful, but isn't financially worth much, can you let the giftee pay the full box up and ship costs? [Collect the $ up front].

If she has a lot of nice usable stuff you can have a service come and tag the items and have a yard sale with the money going to your parent's accounts. I've seen boxes of rags go for 50 bucks. [Check with the condo HOA first ]

H1235

If she would ever need Medicaid it would be a problem. But it sounds like that is unlikely. If you are an only child it might seem ok. The problem is with (I assume) significant assets, you never know who might question your management or take you to court. I think under normal circumstances your mom could gift whatever she wants (assuming no need for Medicaid). But telling a judge “mom said take my car” isn’t going to hold water when mom has dementia and that is why you are managing her money and assets (because she is not capable). Just my take on it. It’s probably best to ask a lawyer. I do think any fees for a lawyer could come out of her money. Yet another question for the lawyer.

JulietteBee

I would suggest you check with an elder law attorney in your mom's state, as that is whose 5-Year Medicaid Look Back Period will be applicable.

I strongly encouraged my mom to stop driving as her premium was going to be $2300/year and that was BEFORE she got an official diagnosis. Living in an IL facility which provided also made car ownership unnecessary.

I asked my attorney & mom's about my taking over the use of her car. I was assured it will not cause me to run afoul of the look back period, and it will not be viewed as "fraudulent divestment."

To do it legally, I had to have mom sign over the title to me, which she did. Then I was able to take it to the DMV to tag and re-title it in my name.

As far as donated clothing vs taking clothing, I don't see how that would pose a problem.

I donated, or sold on FB, my mom's property. I deposited the funds in her acct and gave her tax accountant the charitable gift receipts I got from Salvation Army. There was no one having me give an account for every last item.

Merla

thanks for the input. It all just feels like a big waste going through someone's condo full of nice and usable stuff that they no longer have a use for but there is low or no resale value and I don't have time to spend on resale of stuff nor do I want to advertise an empty condo to the public in the area the condo is located. And this HOA won't even allow a lock box let alone a yard sale. Strictest HOA I've ever heard about.

I am going to sleep on it but think the car is likely too much of a gray area. I did talk to two estate lawyers who both thought my question was a little cuckoo and said it was as a dmv issue. But to me my legal concerns are totally valid so I don't think they know much about elder care law.

My brother is actually the one the car is going to on her death if she has a car per the will so I think this further complicates the issue. He says just take it but I think at the very least this needs to be in writing. Idk

I only 4 days to go through everything so I'm in a time crunch to get it all done.

JulietteBee

Wishing you all the best! 💯

H1235

I believe there are companies that will come in and buy out the personal property and haul it away.

Quilting brings calm

You need to buy the car. You cannot register a car in a state when it’s not titled in that state. You cannot register a car in your name that’s not titled in your name. FYI- once you buy the car, it’s not your mom’s and it’s not covered by her will any more. If you want your brother to have it… then sell it to him rather than yourself. At market value because you are supposed to be doing things in your mom’s best interests not giving yourself or your brother gifts.

Her clothing and used furniture? A different story as those really don’t have value. Medicaid doesn’t care about things that wouldn’t bring over a total of a couple hundred dollars in a garage sale.

harshedbuzz

@Merla

You have a fiduciary obligation to manage your parents' assets prudently.

Even if your mom would never need Medicaid, you cannot gift the car. If it's a later model, allowing it to depreciate isn't a financially sound move either.

I bought my aunt's car at Blue Book value. Her POA signed over the title, I got a new title and registration in my state, brought the tags with me and drove it home.

If your mom has nicer things, you may be able to find an auction agent who will take them on consignment. We did that with my aunt's compound. After we got some family things, paperwork and such out, he rolled in with 3 trucks— one for the dump, one for Goodwill and one for his antique/auction house. The fee for the clean out was subtracted from the share of the sale.

HB

Merla

Yeah, he car is not worth the hassle, I was contemplating paying the car max quote but this combined with the cost of shipping along with high insurance and maintenance and registration and transfer of title is a lot for me at exactly right now. It's just seems like a huge waste. 26k miles on the car.

What is confusing is that I called an estate lawyer and they were like "no reason not to." And my family and friends don't see any issue with it.

I do wish I had been able to convince her to ship the car to me when she lived with me because it was really hard to manage with her there with me and just one car. But alas I suppose I shouldn't lament anything bc her dementia hasn't resulted in total tragedy like many have.

Merla

so this car is really the bane of everyone's existence. I couldn't sell it at carmax because they require a notarized form signed by the person on the title on it in addition to the POA. So annoying as my sibling had called in advance regarding this transaction and they had not informed him of this. So it's just not that easy to sell a car with POA at least not at carmax or carvana.

So now it's likely going to be another trip back there.

harshedbuzz

We used webuyanycar.com

They even gave the better price.

HB