Dating while still married and caring for my wife

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dayn2nite2

I still say that there are plenty of women in the world who wouldn't care a bit if you were married.

But I would also add that by trying to convince a woman who has already stated she has trouble with dating married people to date you or more, you are insulting her and disrespecting her.

Find someone else.

If you are imagining some kind of happy relationship like Dan Gasby tried to portray, it doesn't exist.  Even he admitted after the girlfriend left that she only visited a couple of times a month, didn't live with them at all.  So there was no "oh isn't this cute my girlfriend and I are living together and my wife with dementia just LOVES it."  No, that wasn't happening.

And Dan Gasby left out the part that he was basically living off his wife's wealth and continues to do so.

PlentyQuiet

Please seek companionship in whatever form you decide is right.  

Be wary of the person who immediately has no problem with your situation. They either aren't realistic about what you are facing or they may be looking to exploit someone in a vulnerable and lonely stage.

Be patient with someone who has reservations. They may need time to watch you live the caretaker role (even with your spouse placed in MC) to trust that your intentions are true. It is not the typical situation, and judgement from others can be so harsh, that they may need exponentially more time than the start of any other new relationship. 

Go slowly with everything and be gracious in allowing others to step away if they do not feel comfortable. Alzheimer's is a hard road, and any quick Google search will come up with the destruction of the caregiver spouse. Many would think this is too high a price of admission.

You may find someone, or not. It may be sooner, or later. You may find a new partner, or a vibrant circle of friends. But I encourage the effort of trying to reclaim a bit of life, company, and happiness.

Dan Hoffman

I’m new to message boards and not exactly sure how they work.

I seem to have struck a chord. I appreciate all of the responses and wide range of viewpoints.

Just to reiterate, I’ve spent the last six years giving my wife and me and the best possible life we could have together during her decline. That period has ended and I’m now providing her the best memory care facility that I can. I very much love my wife.

 

I forgot to mention that she has a new boyfriend. I am so happy for her, and for him. They walk down the hallways together holding hands. When he sits in a chair, she bends down and kisses his forehead. She has found love and companionship in her new environment. I know she would want the same for me.

 

I am not looking for sex, in fact I wasn’t looking for anything when I met this new friend, nor was she.

 

As I’ve mentioned, I’ve been in support groups the past five years, and seen all stages of this disease. There are several male and female members of the support groups that have seeked love and companionship and found it while caring for their loved one in a memory facility. In fact, in one case, a gentleman met a lady at an ALZ advocacy event they were both working at. Both of them were caregivers for their spouses in a memory facility. They started dating, and after both spouses passed away, they married each other. This is a true inspirational love story to me, providing hope for the future for those dealing with this disease.

 

My support groups are for early onset ALZ. My cohorts are in their 50’s and 60’s. Maybe it’s more common to date when you’re younger, I don’t know. The whole point was to cast a wider net and learn more from outside my support groups.

 

Frankly, I’m shocked that nobody has replied to this thread that is in this situation (currently dating someone for companionship while their spouse is still alive). I was trying to flush out more stories, learn more, and hopefully help others in the future in this painful predicament.

 

I am thankful that I have met someone that is willing to go slow with me, to see if we can figure this thing out. I am patient. Only time will tell for both of us. I know it’s not easy. She knows I still love my wife and I think she appreciates and understands that.

 

I really would like to hear from others that have direct experience, if they’re out there.

 

Thanks to all of you for providing your support and wisdom.

Crushed

dayn2nite2 wrote:

I still say that there are plenty of women in the world who wouldn't care a bit if you were married.

But I would also add that by trying to convince a woman who has already stated she has trouble with dating married people to date you or more, you are insulting her and disrespecting her.

With all good faith, at  issue is what is a "married person"?  Some but not all people are attached to a purely  legal definition of married, others ask what is the exact situation de facto   
As in so many areas the word marriage is contextual.   
  

dayn2nite2

Crushed, knock it off.

ImMaggieMae

dayn2nite2 wrote:

And Dan Gasby left out the part that he was basically living off his wife's wealth and continues to do so.

-

Good point.

 

Crushed

I have dissected words and their legal and social meaning my entire career.  I have run into many people who KNOW they they and they alone KNOW  what words mean   and can make vast sweeping pronunciamentos about situations based on words
 My job is routinely to point out the uncertainty of language and its frequent  misuse.

 Its what I do

FTDCaregiver

Hi Dan  - I currently care for DW who has EO FTD for the past 5 1/2 years, retired 2 1/2 years ago to provide 24/7 care.  We're both in our 50s, no children, no family support.  We're alone.  I'm dating again, so you found a guy who's in your situation.  Sent you an invite so you can reach out to share perspectives.  It's a complicated and very personal decision.  Be wary of judgmental opinionated outsiders.  I mean by an outsider, another whose does not share your life experiences, age and very personal decision to in seeking love and companionship again, yet still expressing you deep love and commitment to still maintain care and life quality for you LO.  Be prepared for pious folks who will hoist their own morals and presuppositions on your situation.  Well, forgive them as they know not what do, nor what they're talking about, i think they are lashing out in seeing somehow that their own moral compas is being threatened by this decision to date again.  Don't be guided by another's compas, it never points true-north for your journey, trust your own. It's happened to me.  Couple of things I did, joined date sites, and shared my situation up-front about my situation.  It let it lay with her, if she felt she wanted to move ahead good, if not, support and respect that.  If she wanted to know more about dementia, I shared links, including YouTube. Let them do the work if they're interested and gain independent information about what caregivers go through and those with dementia.  let it come from an independent source.  I let my siblings know I was dating again, wow....tmi...not sure I'd recommend it but, I coupled that conversation with clarity in that I let them all know that I did not seek, nor want, to hear their personal views on my decision, in short, I was not seeking their approval but respecting them enough to let them know what plans I had to move forward in my life.  I let them all know that if they had problems with it, they own that, not I, that is something they had deal with.  A few did, and its they're baggage, not mine.  They are not me, do not share my life experiences, including my commitment and deep love for my DW in maintaining care for her until she passes.  Experience and wisdom have taught me that if I take care of myself, I live longer and can take care of my LO with the best care she deserves.  It is a FACT that 65% of caregivers die before the ones they care for.  Many reasons for this, stress, isolation, emotional pain, loneliness, bitterness, physical illness, pick your poison.  My health took a bad turn from stress, I did not want to die young.  Like all caregivers, we've sacrificed and suffer, but that doesn't have to be end of it, each has to find their own path forward, God willing, and hopefully following our own compas guides up to some kind of future where we can still experience love, being loved, companionship and for many intimacies again.  Well. its been over six months since I've started dating, emotionally and physically, I'm healthier, my wife is still declining mentally but I'm right here beside her and feel much less isolated and alone than I was this time months ago.  Did anyone suffer because of my decision to date again?  Not I or my wife, perhaps a sibling or two, but again.... it's their cross to bear, not mine.  Good Luck and I support whatever decision you feel is best to maintain your health so that you can be there to continue to support and care for your LO.  As caregivers, we get lost in giving so much to support our LOs when we neglect our own humanity, right to simply be a human being.  Best to you!

JJ401

After reading this thread, I have some random thought. No answers. Just thoughts.

And Dan Gasby left out the part that he was basically living off his wife's wealth and continues to do so.

Until recently American society expected that once a woman married, she stayed home, kept house, and raised children. The man went to work and ‘brought home the bacon’. Times changed and now there are marriages where the wife works and the husband is a stay at home dad. No one blinks an eye. Statistically, there are a greater number of female caregivers. No one suggests that they are living off their husband’s wealth. Why is there a double standard for men? 

It seems to me, that Dan Gasby is also judged by the second marriage standard even though they were married in 1992. He had worked. He had a successful career.  He supported her career. Yet, the implication seems to be that he profited from being her full time caregiver. 

Is it wrong for a spouse to have a girl/boy friend? On this board there have been discussions about the Alzheimer’s spouse finding a companion in a facility. There’s no condemnation of this. Yet when the community spouse does it, opinions fly.

Would I? At this stage of my life, no. But, if my spouse had early onset, —— ??    No one knows unless they are in the situation. When my first husband was dying, he kept telling me that I should remarry. I kept saying that I wouldn’t. And yet, here I am 23 years into marriage #2. 

Iris L.

Crushed wrote:

I have dissected words and their legal and social meaning my entire career.  

No problem here.

I have run into many people who KNOW they they and they alone KNOW  what words mean   and can make vast sweeping pronunciamentos about situations based on words

I don't know what "proununciamentos"  means.  The rest of this statement, if other people know what they mean to say, so what?  We are adults and can ask for clarification if it is important to us.  Many members post because they just have to get their thoughts out.  A lot of time things posted bother me but I try to overlook it.

 My job is routinely to point out the uncertainty of language and its frequent  misuse.

We are not in a college class , nor are we writing for a grade.

 Its what I do

I see, you have to get your thoughts out.  Just like other members, eh?

It's very strange, how all of us from all different backgrounds and countries are interacting here on this board for one reason, and one reason only--we are affected by dementia.  Yet we can all communicate with each other.  Strange.

Iris

Crushed

Iris L. wrote:

\

It's very strange, how all of us from all different backgrounds and countries are interacting here on this board for one reason, and one reason only--we are affected by dementia.  Yet we can all communicate with each other.  Strange.

My point is that people can THINK they are communicating but  because of the nuance and confusion of language they can be doing something quite different

People use phrases like "marriage vows" as if they are a real "thing" with a universal meaning.   But there is no reason at all to believe that.  In my work I routinely find different groups that have totally separate constructs for words  They are not communicating. 

Look at the confusion over the word  "treatment" for Alzheimer's  Or the concept of "FDA approved" These words do not have clear and universally defined meanings.

The worst case is where people  insult or hurt other people through thoughtless choice of language 

This is an example of a pronunciamento ( the term is a Spanish derivative of pronouncement and is meant to declare a FACT
  
 But I would also add that by trying to convince a woman who has already stated she has trouble with dating married people to date you or more, you are insulting her and disrespecting her.
 
IMHO This is bizarre
how is anyone trying to change a person's opinion on ANYTHING
"insulting her and disrespecting her".  
You are simply trying to change her opinion  we do that all the time

IMHO This is very very aggressive language in a support group.
  
 

dayn2nite2

Of course you’d find that bizarre-because you insult and disrespect people here all the time.  You have no respect for others’ values, morals and beliefs.

I don’t waste my time trying to change what you believe-as you should be doing with anyone else here, but you’ll never get that concept.

Also Mr Gadsby lived off his wife’s considerable wealth prior to her developing Alzheimer’s.  It’s just an extra insult to bring someone else around right under her nose when she’s sick.

jfkoc

Good point...what is marriage. I believe it is a legal union. Committment means more to me and I believe each one of us is allowed to define just what that means. Words said are just words. What we mean is important.

My relationship with my husband was unique and will never be replicated. Does that prohibit having another "committed" relationship? I don't think so but it will differ. It can not be otherwise and if by some very remote chance someone comes into my life I had better remember that while the relationship could be good even wonderful it will not be the same.

Dan....It is not up to us. In the long run, our opinions do not matter. Only you can decide exactly what your committment is to your wife. 

Ed1937

"Words said are just words. What we mean is important." That is so true. And we almost always know what the other person is trying to convey, even if what they said is not technically correct. Example: A person says dementia is a horrible disease. Technically dementia is not a disease, but everyone here understands and even agrees with that concept. 

"Dan....It is not up to us. In the long run, our opinions do not matter. " Again, so true. 

David J

Again, virtual fisticuffs distract us from the initially posted question. Our individual morals aren’t the issue, and shouldn’t overtly enter into our responses. Dan may face moral decisions as he moves forward with this new relationship, but it is not up to us to judge. 

We are all suffering emotional distress as we care for our LO’s, or in my case, restart my life after 16 years of caregiving. We all deal with it differently, but it doesn’t mean some of us are doing it wrong and some of us right. We all do what we have to do. 

When I was caring for my wife at home, I only had a few hours each week to get out on my own. If I wasn’t doing errands, I chose to spend time with my male friends. There was no thought of finding female companionship. After my wife went into memory care, I had more free time, but my main focus was managing her care. Even if I missed female companionship, I had no capacity in my heart or mind for forging a new relationship. My wife was too important to me to risk compromising her care. 

My wife passed away at the end of August. I am still too much in love with her to consider a new relationship. I cannot imagine opening myself up to any of the women I knew before or have met since. 

That’s just me, and your direction forward has to be for you. 

Crushed

dayn2nite2 wrote:

Of course you’d find that bizarre-because you insult and disrespect people here all the time.  You have no respect for others’ values, morals and beliefs.

I don’t waste my time trying to change what you believe-as you should be doing with anyone else here, but you’ll never get that concept.

Also Mr Gadsby lived off his wife’s considerable wealth prior to her developing Alzheimer’s.  It’s just an extra insult to bring someone else around right under her nose when she’s sick.

I have an obligation to respect your right to your "morals and beliefs"
I don't have to agree with them.  I don't have to accept them as universal truths  
And I have a right to label  opinions as opinions  Especially hen they are presented as FACTS
I realize that some folks get violently incensed that anyone holds a different opinion  and feel "insulted and disrespected" by that person's difference of opinion

Well I don't play that game

 

sandwichone123

I'll jump in here, despite my better judgement. I understand all points of view, but I do not appreciate anyone's pronouncement that others are wrong. One can be wrong in fact, "the light was green," when in fact it was red, but moral judgements are not facts. I do not always appreciate Crushed, but I do appreciate his pointing out that communication is less dependable than we often think it is, and that words have meanings to one person that another person might not have been aware of. We should also be aware that we may not all have been raised in the same religious tradition.

If my spouse's money outlasts him, there are judgmental people that can say, "she put him away and then took his money," and I trust that they will. If he outlasts his money, I don't anticipate that anyone will judge him for that.

If I continue to live my life, as a fairly young person, I will know not to discuss some of the details on here.

JJAz

Dan Hoffman wrote:

I forgot to mention that she has a new boyfriend .  . . She has found love and companionship in her new environment. . . . My cohorts are in their 50’s and 60’s. Maybe it’s more common to date when you’re younger . . . Frankly, I’m shocked that nobody has replied to this thread that is in this situation (currently dating someone for companionship while their spouse is still alive). I was trying to flush out more stories, learn more, and hopefully help others . . .

 

Her "boyfriend" is irrelevant to this discussion; she is demented.  And the fact that your cohorts are in the 50s and 60s is also irrelevant.  People of all ages want and need companionship.  Finally, don't be "shocked that nobody has replied."  I've been on this site for a long time (DH diagnosis 2012), and this discussion is raised occasionally, with similar results.  Just accept that your actions are outside the norms, and move on.   

PastorB

Dan, I think you've made up your mind and are looking for affirmation. You are going to do what you believe is the best thing you can. That is what we all do. 

Everyone asks how my DW is. I have no new answers: she will never get any better. She will only get worse. Funny that no one ever asks how I am except our adult daughter, but there's only so much I can explain to her. And so I try to keep a good face on things and distract myself by being as busy as possible. I am sure we all have friends and acquaintances who have had non-spouse LOs with dementia. So have I, but it is very different with a spouse because the relationship is so very intimate on so many levels. I pray that I don't encounter someone that I feel attracted to in my loneliness. As a Christian, I believe that a relationship with a woman not my wife is adultery. My wife is still alive and I wear a ring on my finger so the path is laid clear to me, however hard a path it may be.

Compassion, Dan, no judgment from me. As others have said, though, please be careful to protect this woman to whom you're attracted. Respect her right to decide what is right for her.

FTDCaregiver

Yet again another post casting a personal decision to date as "outside the norm" and deciding to date as somehow abnormal.  Read Dan's post...he is asking for those who've made the decision to date to way in, yet...still see people 'want to 'ante-up' with their 2 cents who made the decision not to date with many judgements.  Stop it.  Empathy oh empathy, where art thou?  Let's all quit judging and casting out commentary on another's decision to do something which runs contrary to our own view of what's normal or moral.  Six months ago I posted the same question in this forum for feedback.  Fortunately, I didn't receive a lot of poor judgement-type feedback Dan is getting but almost all who commented said they would not date for a variety of reasons which included lack of energy; too old-yes, that was a common them and fear their new partner would develop dementia.   One commented on support they had from their children to date again, ah...the wisdom of children.... bless them.  What I did not see, at least openly, was fear of being judged/rejected by friends and family as a reason...hmmm...to close to the truth I think for many of us in this support goup?.  Did you want to date again, find companionship but feared losing friends, family or being rejected in church, work?  Conforming to 'social norms' is a powerful influencer.  Tend to believe many won't say it in this forum, but very likely this was a major factor in steering clear of the issue for those brave enough to admit it in this forum.  Or are you dating..hmmm?  Any secret daters out there, venture their is...well speak up?   Oh my, what would my family/friends think, would the pews chatter about me as I walked into church with another on my arm??  These many posts on Dan's issue confirms that fear of being judged/rejected is very real, at least in my mind and certainly played out in our support group responses.

Dan-to you, yes, I'm dating while I care for my DW who essentially functions now as a 4 year old.  From my own experience, you probably need to take a lesson away from many of these responses and should continue to expect people judging and criticizing your decision. Though their reasoning is irrelevant, the pain they inflict can be very real.  I've felt it, thought about it but can honestly say, for me, this pain was part of the deal I made to seek companionship again, my conscious is at rest and I'm very much emotionally and physically healthier than I was at this same time last year, my DW is in great physical shape and well cared for and can say that its becuase I'm much healthier now.  For me, it was the right thing to do.  Trust your soul and do what's right for you, either way, good things will happen if you do. 

PastorB

Not sure what new judgmental post you're referring to FTDCaregiver. If you mean mine, either I haven't been clear or you've misread. My comments are only about me and my decision and the reasons for it even in light of the pain of loneliness. Dan's decision is entirely his and he will make it in the framework he operates within. In spite of, and even perhaps because of, my convictions, I feel nothing but compassion for anyone --- including you --- who is this lonely. All the best to Dan and to you and all of these folks trying to find their way through the desert this disease puts us in. I will not try to tell any of you what to do: it's not my job. I don't make the rules, just try and sometimes with all my might, to live by the ones I've been given.

I don't come to this board often, but I came here this morning because the loneliness has been particularly crushing in recent days. I am reminded here that I am not really alone - others are going through the same things.

Take care all.

Dan Hoffman

Apologies again about being new to this message board. I thought this topic died. I didn’t realize there was a second page of comments to view!

@FTDCaregiver, thank you for focusing on and addressing my issues.

And thanks to others that are also sending me their best wishes.

It seems like perhaps I am in the minority in this message board group, but that’s all the more reason to reach out to my niche group. There may be others hiding in the wings that are afraid to “come out” because of all of the negative backlash they might endure. Or others that weren’t aware that there was the possibility of finding happiness while caring for and loving your declining dementia spouse.

Because I’m the kind of person that does reach out to others, and has a positive outlook on life regardless of the circumstances, I have found others that have successfully found happiness in this situation. If one was a widow/widower, there would be no problem with them finding love again. But in this crazy dementia world we live in, we cross that line a little sooner. It’s unconventional. It’s not the norm. It’s a niche. 

But that is my point of my post, to explore this niche, understand and learn, grow from it, and help others. I’m not looking for external validation or approval.

Personally, I’m a month in on my journey with my new friend. It’s progressing beautifully. I couldn’t be happier. She’s interested in learning about my past and present relationship with my dementia wife. I’m a lucky man.

 

CStrope

@Dan Hoffman.  Good for you.  There is so much about life with a spouse with dementia that is totally out of our hands, this is one choice you were able to make.  It may not be the same choice others would have made, but it is your choice, and yours alone.

I'm wondering if those who are dealing with EOD think more about future relationships than others.  I know, having a DH with EODA that I worry whether there will be enough of "me" left to even be able to make the choice you've made for yourself.  

I feel myself shrinking away a bit every day.  I used to be the life of the party, the one that put on the dance music and the one that could tell jokes to anyone that wanted to listen for an entire evening.  That person is no longer here, and I have a long ways to go in this journey.

Iris L.

So, to clarify, the question was, if there are any other "lucky" husbands of women with progressing dementia.  My husband went out with another woman while I was ill at home with memory loss.  I don't know how many women he went out with.  He may have thought he was lucky at the time, but he later regretted it.  How do I know?  He told me so years later.  

IMO, I think some posters feel guilty and subconsciously seek some sort of approval or permission when they post this kind on question on the Spouse/Partner board.  This is what I have observed.

Iris

Stuck in the middle

Dan, I'm glad you are doing well.  I know you weren't asking whether to date, but how to explain your situation to your friend.

We have this conversation about once a year, with the same result (no one changes their mind.)  You were the trigger this year.

Stuck in the middle

Iris L. wrote:

So, to clarify, the question was, if there are any other "lucky" husbands of women with progressing dementia.  My husband went out with another woman while I was ill at home with memory loss.  I don't know how many women he went out with.  He may have thought he was lucky at the time, but he later regretted it.  How do I know?  He told me so years later.  

IMO, I think some posters feel guilty and subconsciously seek some sort of approval or permission when they post this kind on question on the Spouse/Partner board.  This is what I have observed.

Iris

Iris, I am sorry for what happened to you.  You deserve better.  FWIW I would not have done what your husband did.

Iris L.

I truly appreciate your kind words, Stuck in the middle.

Iris

Crushed

Just accept that your actions are outside the norms, and move on.  

For those who did not understand what a  pronunciamento 

this is exactly what I meant  A poster assumes a god-like power to declare reality

Rescue mom

Don’t recall any articles or printed info about this, but I know several couples dealing with dementias who were/are involved in extra-marital relationships. “Dating” seems like an odd word these days, but I guess it applies. They’re certainly out and about and traveling.

In all cases, the PWD was beyond knowing anything was going on—more accurately, didn’t know much about anything at all. They did not know their spouse or family, didn’t know they were married, didn’t know where they were, etc. They were all well-cared for, either in a facility or with paid home caregivers, plus spouse.

The non-dementia spouses found companions  to go out and travel with. (I have no idea how far that may have gone). They also did things just as a couple (not just a seat-filler for events). No effort to be secret, everyone knew what was going on (except the PWD whose disease had progressed beyond such things).

The “outside companion” (I don’t know a good word for this) always knew there was a spouse with dementia. In some cases, they were all friends before dementia.

The most surprising thing to me was how accepting others were, considering it’s such a church-going, conservative crowd. The only thing I ever heard about it was “good for her/him” for being able to get out and have a life, under the circumstances.

But I can see reasons why someone may not want to be that “third”/other person. The fact that you have that huge obligation that’s likely to be first priority; family objections; religion/moral. Even big legal matters. Honestly, if those are the big issues, they’re pretty hard to overcome. I myself wouldn’t push it.